Episode 21 – Continuing the conversation on the impacts of suicide with Dennis Mackenzie

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 21: CONTINUING THE CONVERSATION ON THE IMPACTS OF SUICIDE WITH DENNIS MACKENZIE

Brian

You found our podcast, we are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families and specifically mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals, we’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families.

Laryssa

We’re in PEI today recording. This is my first time in PEI, but excited that this is where we’re going to be hosting our podcast from today.

Brian

Downtown Charlottetown.

Laryssa

Downtown Charlottetown.

Brian

The bustling metropolis.

Laryssa

There you go. I recommend Cow’s Ice Cream, I did that.

Brian

Yes, we’ve actually got to see some pretty nice scenery around here. Victoria by the Sea was a surprise in a good way. What a beautiful little spot to go check out.

Laryssa

While we’re here, a chance to connect with some friends. Today we’re joined again by retired Corporal Dennis McKenzie from Bonshaw PEI. Dennis lost a number of friends while serving in Afghanistan. Since then, he’s lost a lot more to suicide. Today we’re going to be having some very open conversations about suicide. He’s now driven to creating awareness around suicide, suicide prevention, and Dennis does work in ensuring that we remember those that we have lost. As mentioned, we’re going to be chatting about suicide today. It can be a difficult conversation. If you are struggling with suicidality, suicidal thoughts, if you are supporting someone, please call 988.

Brian

Yes, it’s difficult and it’s also uncomfortable. I think that, for us, for me especially, I’m still not comfortable having the conversation. I just know that we need to and it needs to keep going. I think, you can normalize it within Veteran conversations more than it has been so far. I often think of organizations, even like our own, sitting around coming up with priorities. In the back of my mind, it’s like, well, but this is the overarching issue in the background, right? It’s so hard. It’s so hard and when you’ve got a list of other things you want to do, it’s easier to go to that list. If someone said, would you rather work on solving suicide or ankle injuries, I’m going ankle because I think I know what to do about that.

It’s the old fire equipment in the school. We’ve got tons of fire equipment because we know what to do about fire, but we don’t have a lot of equipment on the other things that scare us in life. I think about, we’re here, we’re having a great time, this is a great community. We’ve got to see the province. Just in the back of my mind is like, how are all my friends doing at home right now? Are any of them trying to reach out to me and my phone’s busy or I’m out of cell connection? How are they? Am I missing something? I think for those of us that have lost a bunch of people, and I have, to suicide, it almost robs our ability to get a full enjoyment of life.

That’s what I think about a lot. We’re back here with Dennis. We have spoken to Dennis before. As soon as we finished the last time we taped with him, we just came up with a whole list of other things we wanted to talk about because there’s so much going on. Thanks for joining us again.

Dennis

Thanks for having me again. Yes, I just wanted to touch really quickly on one of your points there about how, suicide robs of enjoyment. I just written this down is that what I have found over the years is that suicide has actually been robbing me of friendships, and especially friendships with Veterans. After losing so many, I don’t have that close-knit friends anymore, because that’s always in the back of my mind is just get close to people and they’re gone again.

Laryssa

It’s a protective measure, you just can’t bear to experience that again.

Dennis

Absolutely. It’s something that wasn’t intentional. I realized later on, a few years without hanging out with anybody and being very intentional about that, just came to the realization that this is what I’ve done is distance myself, especially for close relationships in the Veteran community.

Brian

I think about the times in my life when I was at the worst and when you just don’t see any light in front of you. All the different files of your life all look a little dark and closed, right? I think back to those moments of some of the thoughts that crossed my head of like, well, maybe people will be better off once they’re done crying. Once the services are done, they’ll be better off if I’m not there. When I look at my life now, I miss them today. My life is worse today because my friends aren’t in it.

Dennis

Yes.

Brian

I’m a pretty happy guy. No one’s doing me any favors by taking themselves out of this world because I miss them every time. The social gatherings, I think about one of my mates puts on something that’s happened almost 30 years now. It’s just a gathering of folks, the Lads Night Out in Vancouver. It’s the last Thursday before Christmas, we normally all get together. There is just that feeling of like, man, I love these guys, but we’re missing a couple. I won’t be better off if one of my friends leaves.

Laryssa

Dennis you touched on something, I thought maybe we could delve into a little bit more. We might have touched on it a little bit in our last conversation with you, is about how loss of those we love to suicide impacts those left behind. I think it can impact in a number of different ways, in the imminent experiences. Even if someone does not die by suicide, but is experiencing suicidal thoughts and ideations, those that are around them and support them are impacted. Even to the longer term, as you were saying to protect yourself, you’re distancing yourself a little bit.

In the work that you’ve done around suicide awareness and prevention and conversations that you’ve had, how do you see that suicide impacts those that are either left behind or supporting people they care about?

Dennis

If you’re open to it, I would actually like to just turn this right back around. You’ve openly talked in the last podcast about how you were touched by this yourself in your Family, and dealing with it from that side and the watch and the worry. It’s your stories that I’m going to touch on.

Laryssa

Interviewed by the interviewee.

Dennis

I think this is a lens and an angle that really needs to be seen and heard. I think it’s the most important.

Laryssa

I appreciate that. I will share, I think I just want to, we keep using the term Family, but that could be extended Family. Those that you’ve served with, I would imagine you and Brian might define them as Family. In preparing for the work that I do and even for this episode, I was doing a lot of self-reflection and realized that in my lifetime amongst different individuals, I’ve been placed in the position of offering support to someone who is imminently wanting to die by suicide seven times. I had no tools and didn’t know what to do.

Everything from, can I leave them alone for three minutes while I go to the washroom? Can I go get groceries? Do I sleep on the floor beside them? Do I make them make them their own meals? It’s very difficult, I think, for Family members in that imminent moment, and I don’t think we provide enough resources to those that are supporting someone, but then even the reverberation after. For me, maybe similar to you, Dennis, and maybe Brian, for your experiences, when you experience people you love that are close to you that want to die, and maybe similar to you, Dennis, you want to, you need to protect yourself. It’s pretty difficult.

It doesn’t just end once the person, let’s say, is released from the hospital, so to speak. It’s something that I remember for me at one point, I was literally immobilized. I spent two weeks on a couch because I didn’t know what to do. I wonder if the two of you have had anything similar.

Brian

Yes, I remember a prominent Veterans group in Canada gave me a call one day. It was, “Can you take your truck and go down the end of the logging road and find this guy?” Not that he was in the woods. It’s just he lived in a very isolated environment by his own choosing. He wanted to be at the place that was unfindable, if that’s a word. I remember going and talking to him. When I got a sense that he was a little bit better, like we don’t have an imminent risk right this second, how do you leave? I’m here in front of you, so obviously I left but how do you leave? How do you, as you’ve said, grocery shopping is not more important than a person in your life.

Eventually, someone’s got to go out and take the kids to school. Someone’s got to buy the groceries. I think a lot of Family members, and as you’re saying, yes, I consider my brothers and sisters in the forces to be my Family. How do you go home and just leave them? How do you go pick up bread and eggs? You have to.

Dennis

Then at what point do you stop worrying? At what point has it been long enough? What checks are there in place to say that, yes, I don’t have to worry anymore?

Brian

I’ll say though for me when my mindset was at its worst, what it needed for me to get better was just for something to get better, right? Family was falling apart, going through mental health treatment that didn’t feel like I was getting anywhere. If it didn’t get anywhere pretty quickly, that the way that you feed your Family, your job is going to have a problem. There’s just so much pressure and it was a sense of nothing’s working. Kids are reacting, I’m reacting, everything was brutal. It’s not like everything got fixed, but what got me better was one thing at a time got better, right?

That’s how I see that, yes, absolutely, what do you do about it? You might not be able to fix the person’s suicidal ideation. I know, I don’t know how to do that, but I can take you to an appointment and wait outside in the lobby and drive you home. If that’s the 2% Brian way of getting you to feel better, I knew that. Sometimes it’s helping out people with their claims. Sometimes it’s just listening and letting the person have a chance to explain the story the way they see it. That’s what we can do, is we can do anything that makes them just see a little bit of light. That’s my sense of it.

Dennis

Yes, I agree. This is why I think this lens is so important, is because it’s easy when you’re in that dark place to feel like nobody cares. That when you go, no one’s going to care. The truth is, it’s a hole that doesn’t get filled ever. To lose someone this way leaves so much question and hurt and just confusion. I believe, I know for myself, this is the hearing of these stories and the realization that, yes, my Family would be very affected by this. This isn’t just something that I get to take myself out of the picture and everybody’s life is better.

That’s how we easily start to feel and start to think that we’re a hindrance on people, that we’re making people’s life harder. These stories are what helped me to be able to see that and to know that my Family does need me, that my Family loves me, that my Family wants me around. Those are the things that, really will help bring people from those dark places, I believe.

Laryssa

If I can ask you, Dennis, because you’re fairly open, and I’m imagining that journey, you don’t just see a light at the end of the tunnel. You don’t just think about my spouse and my children and my parents and, oh, it’s like suddenly everything is worth living for or worthwhile. I would imagine it would be such incremental things that you grasp onto. Was there something particular for you? Was it thinking about your Family and how actually important you are to your Family? What was it, the types of things that you looked towards as those incremental pieces to get you through to one more day, one more day?

Dennis

After I left the military, my marriage also fell apart. The person that I was with ended up down their own negative path of mental health issues. I have since been a single father to my two boys. Now I’m in a relationship, loving relationship with a co-parent that helps. Through all those years of realizing that I was the only thing for them is literally what kept me going. Being able to know that they didn’t have another option. I could not check out. There was no reliable person to be able to pick up for them. Fortunate or unfortunate, that is really what kept me going.

Brian

It also strikes me that, you know, while I’m not all that bothered about stats and numbers, what I am aware of is I don’t think we’re ever catching the full magnitude of the problem in terms of numbers. If a reservist goes home or if they die by suicide in uniform, what’s the difference? The Family is in as much of a mess no matter what happened. I also think about, there’s definitive stats and then there’s also the single occupancy vehicle incidents of people that drive for a living. Or the canoeing accident of the person that taught boatmanship. I don’t think we’ve got a grip of just how big the problem is. We often think of these things affecting people, as I said, where all their files are closed and the lights all look dark, but it’s really easy to drive by a house of someone you think has everything made. It’s also like outside of our community, doctors, dentists, people that are succeeding in life by what I could look at and judge are they succeeding or not. This strikes in a lot of professional places. It’s such a wide problem. I think back in the military I almost wonder if it’s almost like athletes.

When I describe the various versions of Brian, the neighbor, the husband, all the different things that I am or have been, I think the best version of me is the guy in uniform. That’s the one that I wish I could be again. It’s also the one I think that’s where you look at what I like to do and I’m good at and lining up with what I’m doing and have to do at the time in my life. Those all came together while wearing that uniform, teaching courses, going on operations. I get the sense that the best version of me happened. That in itself can be a crushing thing to look in the mirror at because I think I’m doing a good job today.

I know I have effect. I’ve got a lot of things going for me. That one does get me down. Still to this day, I don’t have the answer for it of yes, you’re making it work, man, and you’re doing good. This sense of the best chapter of your book is about three chapters ago. I wonder if that also affects other people. Am I calling myself an athlete or high achieving? Not really. I’m just saying, I see in the rearview mirror my best days and that’s when I start to go down the path of is it worth it? What am I doing? I have to check myself on those. When I’m there for too long, that’s when I have to phone the doctor like I need a session now.

Dennis

Yes, and that’s common. Over years, I’ve seen, so I spoke to many people about these types of things. One is it’s a sense of a loss of identity, right? I find that the higher the rank, the easier that hits and the harder that hits. You go from being a general where someone salutes you just because you’re walking down a hall to a kid that won’t even look you in the eyes at the gas station anymore. It’s a pretty big shock and a pretty big change. Then one more thing I wanted to touch on where you were talking about the stats and how the stats can’t– it’s hard to see them as complete.

Another demographic that I worry about is you talked about the single vehicle occupancy accidents, and also overdoses I’d put in that category as well. Especially because an accidental death is easily covered for benefits where a suicide isn’t necessarily. It has to be proven to be service related in order for Family to still remain covered under that.

Laryssa

Actually, I did want to ask you about whether there’s any common misconceptions or myths, I guess, about suicide or the work that you do through suicide awareness messages that’s important for you to get across. Yes, are there any misconceptions that you would like to put out there?

Dennis

That is one for sure that the Department of Veterans Affairs specifically has gotten much better with. It used to be very difficult in those types of situations now not so much. Even I do a lot of work in the commemorative space and I’ve been working a lot trying to get specific commemoration for those lost to suicide. However, we do have and this isn’t really common knowledge, the online war memorial that VAC has done does have many of the members on there who have taken their own life. It’s something that’s not just a general blanket.

There are some that aren’t on there, and I’m sure that would be a matter of the Family. This even goes back to our last podcast, Brian, where you were talking about how you have to do more than just open your doors. For the higher end of this, what I see needs to happen is for Veterans Affairs not to just say, well, we’re going to allow commemoration now, but it’s to make contact with every known Family and to say, we did it wrong. We want to do it right. What is your input? We want to honor your member the same way. We need to be able to tell these Families that your member was lost to the same war for the same reason.

Brian

Just later.

Dennis

Exactly.

Laryssa

It has the same value and it’s the same loss. We stopped into a local legion, as a matter of fact, a couple days ago, taking in beautiful PEI. As we were walking through the Legion, there was a gentleman there that was guiding us through and there was the photograph of a young soldier who had died. This gentleman taking us on the tour of the Legion very openly said, this young man served, and this young man served and lost his life to drug addiction. He actually framed it to us saying he lost his battle with PTSD and died by drug overdose. I just really admired that by taking us over to that photo and introducing us to this person and mentioned something about their parents, that he was honoring that loss and was very open about it. It might not necessarily have been suicide. I don’t know the rest of the story, but just the fact that it was a different means of loss, that he was very open to talking about it.

Brian

You make a good point. We were driving back and stopped in the town of Bonshaw there, well-known to you.

DENNIS Yes.

Brian

Yes, we popped into the Legion as we normally do when we drive by. In some ways it was funny, right? We walk in, and I can only compare it to a Wild West movie when you walk through the saloon doors and everyone turns around and looks at you because they’re probably not used to new faces walking in. After that initial five seconds of them being shocked that, some new faces are in town, they’re the most welcoming group of people, brought us right in. We had to basically fight off being welcome into the dart tournament. Great place, great folks. What you’re saying is important. He brought us right in there.

He showed us that this man has got his picture up here, his story is on the wall, and he wasn’t hiding it. I was really impressed that day. First of all, trauma-informed language was high. He knew what he was talking about. They’ve got past this point, I would say, I’ve seen in the past, or even in modern day, where it’s hidden in the back room. You’re like, no, we’re going to talk about this. This man served, and he’s gone and this is how. I think that’s doing something.

Dennis

Yes, I agree. That Legion that you’re talking about also, this year at Remembrance Day, their silver cross mother was the mother of a soldier who had taken his own life.

Brian

Is that right?

Dennis

Yes. There’s definitely some steps happening, the recognition coming, the communities are doing it anyway. The small community stuff is happening. I commend the local Legion on that. Very impressed with them.

Laryssa

Something I noticed, Dennis, is that you say the names. I think a lot of people were shy, too. We don’t want to upset the Family. As you said, Brian, there’s a way to hold it behind the curtain but you say the names, and in doing that, to me, you’re honoring your friends, and you’re remembering them. One thing that I also wanted to talk about was maybe similar to the Legion, was because you do a lot of work in awareness, and you’re so open in talking about it. I mentioned the last conversation we had with you, how much I appreciated it.

Just as an aside, we met with you and your spouse for dinner at a great local restaurant, best butter chicken in the area, from what I understand. There were the four of us there having a very open, frank conversation about suicide in the middle of the night. I was like, I love this restaurant. It didn’t dawn on me until later. I was like, I wonder what the people around us who might have been overhearing our conversation, what they might have taken away from that. One thing I do want to ask you is, if people are listening, and they want to get more involved in creating awareness or suicide prevention in the community, what are some ways they might be able to go about doing that?

Dennis

That’s a good question. Are we talking about in the Veteran community, or just in general?

Laryssa

Yes, let’s talk about that. Yes, let’s talk about Veteran community specifically. Then there’s something different because as you alluded to, Brian, it’s unfortunately something that many Canadians live with. Just whatever might specifically come to mind for you.

Dennis

I would say that one’s as easy as getting into a local Veteran peer support group and bring it up and see how many people in that room are connected by the exact same thing. You just have to have the vulnerability. If you’re willing to go in and into these situations, not asking people what they’ve been through, but to share what you’ve been through, people are a lot more open to connecting and then telling you their story. If someone’s wanting to get connected into this, that’s what it’s about, is just get in and tell your story and connect on the local, the low level with those that are sitting around for coffees or whatever peer support groups are in the local area.

Laryssa

From you sharing your own story, I would imagine that one of the things that inhibits people from talking about it is the fear of feeling like they’re being judged. For you, is that something once you talk about your experience and your story, did you ever feel that from folks you were opening up to?

Dennis

Yes, I have a couple times, and not by the folks I was opening up to. You mentioned how I say the names, and I do because I find it’s important. Like Brian has said, these are our Family too. I’m not blood related to these guys, but I know a lot of the people they know. I know their brothers and their sisters.

Brian

You shed blood with them.

Dennis

Yes, that’s fair.

Brian

You are blood related.

Dennis

Yes, fair enough. I say the names because I think it’s important. There was one point where I was doing an interview, and I was specifically asked not to say the name of one of my friends. It was because it’s a much bigger issue. Lionel Desmond. It’s a very known — he was a good friend of mine. We did our battle school together, eight months in Meaford, Ontario together, and then a year living in the shacks together, so knew him very well. I think he is a great example. It brings up a lot of emotions and different opinions, but I know that man, and I knew him young, and how he was. He was one of the most gentle, kind, funny people I’d ever met.

You talk about trying to rationalize and accept when you heard somebody’s gone. That one, for me is still impossible. I met his mother, I met his wife, I met his child. It’s still impossible. Since that day, I have said, I’ll never do that again. If that happened again, I’d turn down the interview before I agreed not to mention another name. I think it is most important to say these names. On my guitar, I’ve been able to gather 80 of the soldiers’ names that have taken their own life. On the back of my guitar, they’re all written in permanent markers. I have them just there with me as I go, and as I collect more names, I just put them on.

Brian

As you’re speaking, I can see what listeners can’t. I can see there’s a change in you in the last three sentences because it’s hard and because you did name the name. When we name names, I think one of the things we fear, well, I certainly do, is when I name names, I see them more vividly in my mind. I’m no longer talking about this abstract concept that happens to people. I’m talking about Nick. I’m talking about individuals that– I’m struck by a eulogy a friend of mine gave at one of the funerals for a guy we lost to suicide. He talked about this chess game that they had ongoing.

I will remember that eulogy for 50 years. I forget where I’ve put my keys, but I’ll never forget that. Talking about how they had this chess match that was going for months, and whenever they’d see each other, they’d move a couple pieces. That this chess board is still waiting for him to make his last move. I can move away from that thought when I don’t mention the names, and when I do mention them, I can’t think of anything but him up there giving that eulogy, and just how hard that was, and how hard that was to hear. I think that’s why I struggle to name names sometimes. I see them more when I do.

Dennis

Yes, I think that’s fair. I’ve just spent a lot of time with it, a lot of time getting right with the thoughts, and that’s an intrusive thought, essentially, that you’re then dealing with, and it’s just something that I’ve spent a lot of time swimming through.

Laryssa

I wonder if there’s a way, that when you’re thinking about them, it’s difficult, but it’s paying honor to them. We say we will remember them, and that doesn’t mean it’s easy but if it’s a way to continue that, I don’t know, respect, and as I said, to honor, and love the idea of your guitar. What a way to pay homage to them. They’re with you. Every time you play, they’re with you. I think that’s actually quite beautiful.

Brian

You brought up also, Laryssa, about dinner the other night. I’m proud of us that we had that conversation. I’m not always aware when I’m speaking of what volume I’m speaking in. Maybe that might have needed an adjustment. Four grown adults who’ve been affected by this, openly speaking about it, I think we’re supposed to do that, right? In fact, I know we are. I’m proud of that conversation. It just might have been odd for other folks around. Maybe when it’s not odd, we’re better at this.

Dennis

Even if it is odd, then maybe that’ll strike a conversation for them, talking about their friend. They were having this weird conversation about suicide right beside us in the open, and that might, who knows where that goes, right? Back on what you had mentioned about those thoughts and those intrusive thoughts, I would much rather take those and still have those and still be able to embrace those. Remembrance Day is a tough time to remember everybody. It’s hard to say, I’m going to take this 10 minutes to think of this person and this 10 minutes to think of this person. You can’t always drum that up on the spot. When it does come, that’s beautiful.

It’s a time to sit with it and be with that person again, be with that energy.

Brian

It’s also, one thing that happens there for me is thinking about the bit of me that I lost there, and then gained. I’m not who I am today without going through hard things. You’re right. I’ve had some remembrance days for me that were, I’d say, more joyous than bad because yes, there’s a rough circumstance that we’re commemorating the loss of kids. I never used to talk about a 17-year-old to a 25-year-old like kids. Now that I’m in my 40s, I see why people do that. There’s been some of those remembrance days, particularly when we’ve lost someone to suicide that year. It’s a degree worse than the others. It’s just harder.

Laryssa

I don’t want to seem cliché, but I know that this has been, I know for me, and I’m assuming for the two of you, a really difficult conversation to have. I’m thinking about people who might be listening, they might be with friends, they might be alone. I think it’s important, as you said, I think each one you referred to, making an appointment with your counselor, connecting with peer support. If you’re a Family member, like I was in that position sitting on a couch not knowing what to do. It might be talking to your GP about it or something.

Again, I know that sounds cliché but I think it’s important to surround ourselves with supports. Again, something we touched on earlier is about getting through moments like that through community, and it might not be the first door you knock on, whether you’re the person experiencing suicidal ideation or the Family member, it might not be the first door you knock on. You have to find the person that is maybe in their own place in the right space to talk about it. I just really feel I want to encourage people to ask questions, to look for information.

Dennis

Yes. Also, I think, if you are the loved one, and you’re concerned about the mental health of whether it’s a friend, a Family member, what have you, I think it’s okay to be selfish. I think what’s important is to be able to say, Brian, I need you in my life, and this is why. This is what you bring to my life. Let the person know that they will be a loss. Be selfish.

Laryssa

I think that’s really good advice in some certain ways.

Dennis

Yes.

Brian

Yes. I noticed as we were going through community where you live the other day, quite rural, quite spread out. It’s not like you can knock on the door of the other guy in the condo and have a chat. Is connection harder in rural communities? I ask that because I can’t stop thinking about that Legion where the vast majority of people in there were Vets, everyone else was Family. It seems to me in the rural places that while it might be harder to connect, where there are opportunities to connect, people seem to use it. Is that fair?

Dennis

Yes. I think that when it comes to connection like this, it’s much more of a quality over quantity and it’s more about the level of a connection that you can have with a person over how many and how often your connections need to be.

Brian

When we spoke last time, one of the things that stood out to me is quite often when you’re in the world of mental health of any sort, specifically we’re talking about Veterans and suicide here, but quite often the instructions you get are what not to do. Don’t touch this. It’s like walking into the cockpit of a plane and they’ve told you, well, don’t touch anything. Like what do I do then, right? I get more excited when I see stuff that says, here’s a strategy. We’ve laid out six things that you could possibly do. Even here in this conversation, you’ve put things on the table that can be done. Being selfish in, I don’t see it as selfish, but I see your point. Your point is you can say, I need you, right? I need you around and I’ll be way worse off without you here. That’s a thing that can be done.

Dennis

That’s the thing everyone wants to hear. Who doesn’t want to hear that? Especially if you’re struggling to hear that I need you here.

Brian

We talked about this also before. What do you do in a session like this where we’ve gone through something that’s tricky and something that’s very uncomfortable and difficult because you’re going to leave here and so are we, and we’re going to go about our day. Even talking about that chess match between my two buddies there, that’s a harder conversation than 90% of the other podcasts that we’ve done. I know to handle my own body and brain properly that I have to square up with that.

I walk out of here pretending that nothing tricky or emotional has gone on, I’m lying to myself and I’m setting myself up for failure later on.

If that were to go on for five, six hours, then you turn to something, to a substance to try and numb it. I know not to do that. A FaceTime call to my kids is about as instantly grounding as I get, so I do that. I also will play some complicated bagpipe music because I’m really bad at it, but I’m learning and it gives me a thing to try and do. You don’t want to hear it, trust me. You probably don’t want to hear it for about two more years. For me, it’s a goal. I want to get there. I’ve got to be around to get there, right? That’s my strategy. How do you handle stuff like this?

Dennis

Music is my go-to. Even if I’m not intentional on music, I’ll sometimes just sit there plucking a guitar while I’m thinking about these things. There’s no intention in it. I’m just, I don’t even know what I’m doing sometimes. With the thoughts, it’s, I try to remind myself and be grateful for those relationships that I did have. It can only hurt this much if you loved somebody big, right? It’s tough to find those type of people and those type of relationships. I also try and remind myself and think of those good times and that without that, you wouldn’t have the pain. If you didn’t have that, the pain wouldn’t be so great. I just try and remind myself that it is all good. It’s all love. It’s all the positive that you’re feeling, even if it’s hurting.

Brian

That’s the commitment we make to each other here today, is that we’re not just going to say this is an idea. We’re actually going to do those things. Thank you again, Dennis, in the lovely town of Charlottetown, PEI. This has been another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

Thanks, Dennis.

Dennis

Thank you.

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission, wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If you know someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I, have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at atlasVeteran.ca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message, or leave a review on this episode and let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.