Episode 22 – A father’s journey from heartache to helping others heal with Jim Davis

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 22: A FATHER’S JOURNEY FROM HEARTACHE TO HELPING OTHERS HEAL WITH JIM DAVIS

Brian

You found our podcast, we are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families, and specifically, mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals, we’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families.

Brian

Here we are again, joined on Mind Beyond the Mission, sitting beside my partner in crime Laryssa Lamrock. Good to see you in Halifax.

Laryssa

I was going to say, yes, this is remote Halifax. It’s good to be here.

Brian

Yes. Normally we try and record in Ottawa whenever we’re in town, we do it digitally. We’re out on the east coast doing a little bit of touring around. We’re joined today by a new friend for me, but a good friend, Jim Davis. Part of what we do at the Atlas Institute is “nothing about us without us.” It’s a phrase you’ve heard before. Within that phrase, we’re always talking about Families and how we have to have Families first. Sometimes that gets typecast though. People just think of the spousal relationship. In this case, we’re talking with fathers.

Laryssa

Yes. It’s important that we talk about it a lot at Atlas because “Families” is in our name. What exactly is the definition of a Family? I think it’s pretty broad and for many people, it could be any extension of that. It could be a fire team partner for that matter, someone that you formerly served with. Absolutely happy to have you with us, Jim, as the father of a soldier.

Jim Davis

Well, thank you so very much. It’s so nice to be here with the two of you. I’m very happy that you invited me to come.

Brian

A couple of years ago on social media, I reached out to Jim. You see, Paul had a lot of things about him that were very easy to recognize. He had a hell of a wrist shot.

Jim

[laughs] Quite the hockey player, yes.

Brian

We played hockey night in Ćoralići in Bosnia a number of times and I wore the bruises of that shot. He also has that Davis nose. When I met you the first time, actually scrolling through social media, and then I met you at the airport and you told me, “You’ll recognize me, I’ll be wearing this, I’ve got the dog.” I came around the corner like, “That’s Paul’s dad right there.”

Jim

[laughs] I’ve had those comments before and I have to laugh because I do know Paul ended up with surgery and I’m not too sure whether it was the second last year of his life, but it was later on in his life. That was one of the thoughts that crossed my mind. If you don’t mind for a moment, I’ll get a little bit serious here.

When I was at the repatriation and we went to the coroner’s office, the coroner asked me to identify him. That thought came across my mind because I thought the last time I saw Paul alive was the day he got on the plane to fly over. He gave me that wonderful smile and he looked so good. That was the image I wanted to keep in my mind. I’m going to make myself cry thinking about it because I can see it right now.

Laryssa

Of course.

Jim

It’s been 18 years, but it’s like it was yesterday.

Brian

It has been 18 years very recently, that anniversary come up.

Jim

Thoughts are starting to come to my mind as you were speaking, Brian. It’s like Paul gave me a call on January 23, 2006. That was election day. He gave me a call on January 22, the night before, and said, “Dad, I’m going to Afghanistan tomorrow morning.” My wife Sharon, she says, “Oh, Jim, you have to go say goodbye to him.” I said, “Well gee, Sharon, he’s in Winnipeg. He’ll be leaving the airport in Winnipeg.” She goes downstairs, gets on my computer and comes back up. She says, “You have a red-eye ticket at Air Canada to go to Winnipeg tonight at midnight.”

I go to the airport. I fly out to Winnipeg. I’m at the airport before the soldiers arrive to get on the plane. I meet another young man sitting in there. His parents obviously let him off at the airport and he was sitting there. He was nervous. His legs were vibrating a bit. He said, “Do you think we’ll be safe over there?” I tapped him on his knee and I said, “You get over there, and you get together. Don’t you leave your comrades. You stay together. Those Taliban, you’ll scare the hell out of them. They’ll run.” Anyway, then we heard a bunch of laughing because the bus arrived. The soldiers from Shilo arrived and they were coming in and I could hear all the laughing.

The most powerful laugh I could hear was Paul there talking to his comrades. They came into the room and Paul looked at me shocked and says, “Dad, what are you doing here?” I said, “Do you think anybody could stop a father from coming to say goodbye to his son who’s going to war?” My point is, they were all in there, all got together and that young man I was talking to, I couldn’t see him anymore. He just melded in with the rest of the soldiers.

They reminded me of a hockey team getting ready to go out on ice to battle. They were in their dressing room, all geared up, talking and having fun. That’s a powerful memory in my mind. Paul was the last soldier to get on that plane. He did that on purpose because he and I went for a walk and spent two hours together. As they were getting on that plane, he was the last soldier turned, made eye contact with me and oh, I don’t mean to get too emotional but I know what he was thinking. I could see it in his face.

His thought was, “Is this going to be the last time I’m going to see you, Dad?” That was the thought that was on my mind. I got in my taxi and I started to cry. Powerful memories.

Laryssa

I was just going to say, so powerfully etched in what a beautiful gift for you to have —

Jim

Yes.

Laryssa

— of those memories. Thank goodness for Sharon for booking that flight for you. I’m sure you’re eternally grateful for that. Something that comes across very easily is how proud you are of your son.

Jim

Ah, thank you.

Laryssa

Something, too, that I’m curious about as well is you still stay connected to the community. It seems like that’s very important to you. It seems like, I don’t want to make any assumptions, but it comes across that you are very proud of our soldiers and of our Veterans as well. It feels like that — is that something that you still quite identify with?

Jim

Yes, it is. It’s interesting. I think about it a lot recently. From Paul’s death, I’ve started to learn that out of all negativity in this world, in our life, if you look hard enough you’ll find positives. From Paul’s death, I have met so many wonderful people. I’ve come to meet so many soldiers that are suffering with operational stress injury (OSI). I’ve actually had some of them talk to me. I had them open up to their experiences in Afghanistan. I could go on tangent for a lot.

For example, there’s one powerful memory I have. I won’t name names. Well, I don’t remember his name. I was at a meeting in our bereavement program, HOPE. I was at a meeting in Ottawa, one meeting we were invited to sit with Veterans. They were all, I guess it was OSISS, Operational Stress Injury Social Support. They were having a meeting. We all got together for a couple of hours. During the break I went out on the veranda. It might not have been that meeting. See, my memory’s bad.

It was a meeting because the Veterans were talking about some experiences they had. They were up on a stage. One young Veteran, he talked about, I don’t know what country he was in. I don’t know if it was Bosnia or where. It was in a gunfight, he was shot twice and went unconscious. His comrade saved his life and got him into safety. He was talking about that.

He was out on the veranda during our break. I went out. I said, “Do you mind if I ask you a question?” I said, “Now, you can tell me to go to hell if you want but I would like to ask you a question.” He said, “What’s your question?” I said, “What was on your mind — you thought you died, right?” He said, “Yes, I did.” “Well, what was on your mind when that happened?” He looked at me. He said, “I was thinking about my mother.” I said, “Thank you.” Because that instantly told me I know what Paul was thinking. Paul was thinking about his two little girls. They were three and five at the time, Julia and Malia.

Anyway, so I thought that was nice. A year later I met that young man again. He came up. He said, “Mr. Davis,” he said, “I want to tell you something.” I said, “What? He said, “I want to thank you for the question you asked me because nobody’s ever asked me that question.” It made him feel good that he could express that. Well, that makes me feel good if I helped that young man in a small little way but I helped him. Well thank you, Paul, for putting me in the position where I can help your comrades.

Laryssa

I think you have helped a lot of people, and what you provided in that moment was empathy. I just want to say you mentioned the HOPE program, Helping Our Peers by Providing Empathy. HOPE is a national program, and I know you’ve been very involved in that. Maybe it’s a gift, maybe it’s making meaning of the loss of your son, and you’ve been paying that forward to other parents, to other Family members, it sounds like to other soldiers. I think that’s, like you said, finding the beauty or the positive in something that must have been extremely difficult for you.

Jim

I think we have about 40 volunteers now in the program, but usually when we have our meeting it’d be about 20, 25 of us that can make it to it. What happens is we have our meetings during the day, and then at night we go to our hotel room, and that’s when you could see the laughing and the fun that we all have, teasing each other. Then when you’re in the taxi cab going back to the airport, I usually like to sit in the front with the cab driver because I’ll pay the bill and put that on my expense report.

Anyway, so going to the airport, I can hear mothers, my wife and two other mothers in the back laughing and having fun. One time the taxi driver said to me, he said, “Where are you guys from?” I told him what we were representing because he was shocked to see we were laughing and having so much fun. Then he got emotional. He said, “I have a son that’s in the military, the Canadian military,” and this gentleman was an immigrant, and I can’t recall the country he came from.

He told me that he was and I said, “Your son’s in the Canadian military?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Oh, wonderful. It’s a wonderful profession.” He said, “I was in the military,” in his home country. I can’t remember exactly what he was telling me, but there was going to a school and there was some kind of problem and an explosion and he said, “Next thing I know, I’m going up to the clouds.” He said, “I see this man and he’s got a scar on his face. The man looks at me and says, ‘No, this is not your time. Go back to Earth.'”

He said, “I come back and I wake up in the hospital.” He said, “I’m telling my Family who I saw because I described him,” and they said, “That was your grandfather who died before you were born, because the scar on his face, they knew who he was talking about.” He says to me, “Here I am, Jim. Now in Canada, driving a cab. That’s all I do. Why did I not die?” I don’t know if it was a dream or not, but I wasn’t going to get into that. I said, “There’s a reason why you came back.” He said, “Why?” I said, “Because you came back to tell me your story. You just made me feel good, because you’re telling me that one day I am going to see my son again.” He got quite emotional.

When we got to the airport, I paid the bill, I get out, and the girls get their luggage, and they’re out. He gets out of the cab, comes around, gives me a big hug and thanks me. I thought, wow, now that made me feel good. Those little things because of the tragedy of Paul’s death, through me, I can help. I will keep doing that.

Brian

I wanted to ask you, Jim, about how you approach anniversaries, because in our community it’s a tough one. Most of the losses from Afghanistan happened in the summer months and around then. We’re getting into that period now where the social media feeds of everyone across the country are going to start with one reminder after another of a lot of tough moments for people. That’s just happened for us and certainly for you with Paul. The 2nd of March is when you lost your son. These years, what is the 1st of March like for you?

Jim

Well, I know what you’re getting at. I’ve talked to other Families and the peers that we reach out and help and I know Christmas is difficult. I’m a little bit different. It could be because I think about Paul every single day. It’s been 18 years. I’ve got to remember now, I’m 75 years old. At my age, 18 years is nothing. If I was in my thirties or forties, 18 years sounds like a lifetime. 18 years goes by so fast. My grief is now the same as it was yesterday.

What happens is, I have two children, Craig and Laura, and my wife Sharon. Sharon’s Paul’s stepmom. We have our Christmas. Christmas is all about them. I don’t think about Paul during Christmas. I remember his last Christmas we had him at our house during his last Christmas. I got pictures of it and videos and everything, and that’s fun. March the 2nd is no different than any other day to me.

Brian

Really?

Jim

Yes, it’s interesting because I know what you’re saying, Brian, because I’ve talked to other people. When their ceremony of their son or daughter, they get quite emotional about it, but I don’t. The date does not have an effect on me, which is strange. It could be because I think about Paul every single day.

For example, right now, sitting here talking to you two, it’s very emotional for me to do this. It gives me the opportunity to say it, to get it out. Now, Remembrance Day, November the 11th, that’s different because on November the 11th, I’m looking at especially the Veterans that are there that were during the Second World War. Unfortunately, there’s not that many left. I think about them, and I see what’s going on at the and there’s so much. It’s like when I walk, I have an Alaskan Malamute that needs to be walked every day and most times I walk him around the cenotaph in Bridgewater, where in the cenotaph, in the main monument that recognized the Second World War, First World War Veterans, Paul’s name is on a little plaque at the top and I see that every time my dog and I walk by there.

At the school in Bridgewater, the Canadian Pacific Railroad donated monuments. Paul’s picture and, of course, the DeMone Monuments in Bridgewater, they donated the foundation for it. I walk by and their trees are planted there. I see that every single day when I’m out walking my dog around town. Every time there, it never fails. I’m looking up the sky, and I often say, “So what are you doing today, Paul?” It’s every day for me.

I guess after 18 years, when it comes to grief, a lot of people that have not experienced it, think, “Oh, after a couple of years, you’ll get better.” You don’t. Grief never goes away. I think you learn how to live with it. You become stronger but it never goes away.

Brian

You do find space for other emotions.

Jim

Yes, you do.

Brian

One of the things that has always struck me about your story, and it just so happened we were discussing this before we walked into this studio right here, the day you were made aware that you’d lost Paul, somehow you had something to say. A lot of people, it’s months before they can find their words. You wound up, within hours, speaking to the nation about pride.

Jim

Yes, if you allow me, Brian, maybe I’ll go back to that moment for a moment. My daughter-in-law, remember, they lived in Shilo. My daughter-in-law, she called the house. I’m waken up by the alarm clock at around seven o’clock in the morning so I can go downstairs and do my usual stuff on the computer. What happened was, every morning the alarm would go off, I would wake up and I’d hear the news. The news that morning was a Canadian soldier was killed in Afghanistan. My thought was, “Oh, Paul’s there. There’s 2,000 soldiers. The odds of it being him, I’m not going to listen.”

I got up and showered and did normal thing and went downstairs to work on the computer. It was getting close to, I don’t know, eight o’clock. I don’t remember the time. The phone rings and it was my daughter-in-law talking to Sharon. I thought, “Oh my gosh, why is she calling this hour of the morning?” Because there’s a few hours in the difference. I go up in the kitchen, and I put my hands on Sharon’s shoulder. My thought was, “Oh, Paul must have been in an accident or something. He must be hurt.” I put my hands on Sharon’s shoulder, and I said, “Oh, Sharon, please tell me Paul’s okay.” She said, “I can’t. Paul was killed.”

Unbelievable. All I remember now is I was on the floor on my back, because I punched myself so hard, I almost passed out. Later on that morning, friends come to the house, and we’re all… well as people were coming, and the press started coming in the street and the phone was ringing a lot. Well, my wife Sharon and my brother Frank, they would answer the phone to protect me, and they said, “Jim, we’ll answer the phone and talk to everybody.”

I looked at my young son, Craig, who was 12 years old at the time. I said, “Craig, this is what happens when — everybody’s different, when they have a shock with the loss of a loved one.” I said, “Craig,” I said, “My computer — I’m out of black ink, I’m going down to the store to get some more. Come?” He came with me. We go downtown to the store, we walk in and we buy our black ink, and I’m looking at the young man that waited on us, and he says, “Oh, how was your day today?” I said, “My day’s okay.” I said, “My son was just killed in Afghanistan.” The poor young man looked totally shocked, he didn’t know what to say.

I looked at Craig, and we take the package, and we’re walking out, and we get on the sidewalk, and I said, “Craig, did I just say that to that young man?” He said, “Yes, Dad, you did.” I said, “Oh, my gosh,” and I looked up at the sky, and I said, “Craig, I just want to tell the whole world how proud I am of your brother.” We’re back in the kitchen, and we’re discussing with everybody how to deal with the media.

Derek Wells, retired MP, he said, “Jim, would you like me to go out and talk to the media? I’m comfortable talking to the media.” I was just about to say, “Oh, please Derek, do that.” Craig spoke up and said, “But Dad, you just told me that you want to tell the whole world how proud you are of Paul.” I thought, “Wow.” I looked at Derek, and I said, “Please ask the media to come into the house and invite them into the living room.” That’s where we did our interview.

While I was being interviewed, the message I wanted to get out was, not only am I proud of Paul and shocked about his death, but I’m so proud of you soldiers for the work you are doing. If I remember right, I said, “I support the mission 110% for the work you are doing.” Then I also wanted to speak to the other parents, our mothers and fathers who soldiers that were with Paul that were injured. I said, “I pray that they’re going to be okay.” That’s how I responded. Now my whole point is, everybody acts differently when they’re told something like that.

Laryssa

I can’t imagine. I don’t even want to try to imagine the loss of a child. I have children of my own. Often you have to do that in such a public way. Whether it’s a training accident, whether it’s deployment, whether it’s unfortunate loss to suicide, many Families go through that in a really public way. You connecting with — in the work that you’ve done, following that with peer support, that must be so important for those other parents for you to share and prepare them for that.

Jim

Now, how do you make anything better? Well, just make sure the HOPE program is functioning well. It could expand.

Laryssa

You’re saying it’s just make sure that those supports are available because —

Jim

Yes. Now there’s a lot going on I see across the country with MFRC, Military Family Resource Centres, like there’s one here in Halifax and so on. It’s very important, this one thing that our volunteers do in the HOPE program. We are sent around the country. We volunteer to go speak to, I guess you’d call them designated assistants, which are soldiers that volunteer to help a Family that loses somebody in the military. We go and speak to them and explain to them what our experience was.

Which leads me to a number of things. Each Family basically has a different experience. I think it’s very important, yes, see, now you’re going to get me going. There are very important things that the military should be doing, which we’re talking to its own members. Make sure that your wills are up to date. There’s been unfortunate situations where a soldier has passed on and they discover the wills for his ex-girlfriend, not his current wife. Those are important.

Then the other thing that soldiers have to recognize that the military does too, and this is very important, I experienced it, the executor of an estate, the person that’s in charge, unless we’re at war. Afghanistan is at war over there, but our country is not at war. Anyway, the executor of the estate, by law, is chosen by the person that’s chosen in the will.

Paul made me the executor of the estate but the military didn’t recognize that. When you feel like you want to get involved and help organize the funeral and so on, that would make me feel good. I’m trying to do something good because Paul asked me to do that. But the military said, “No, Jim, you wait until afterwards.”

My thought was, “Well, the military’s paying for the funeral. They’re doing a lot of that. So, Jim, appreciate that,” so I kept my mouth quiet and just went along with the flow. I always thought, “Oh,” because that was one thing Paul asked me to do.” Here I am, standing out there, going for a walk with him each of us having a cigarette, and there’s snow on the ground. He’s going to war and he’s telling me, “Dad, I want you to be the executor of my estate.”

He was smart. He knew something could happen. That’s what the military needs to do, is really recognize what Families are going through. Families, there’s always a divorce situation. I was divorced from Paul’s mom. That makes it difficult for the military to deal with. Because basically, you can have two separate Families —

Brian

Sure.

Jim

— in the same grief.

Brian

As you’ve been speaking today with us, the truth is, certainly for yourself, for me as well, there’s a tear or two. But there’s more smiles and happiness than tears. Is that an appropriate way to explain how what’s happened in the last 18 years?

Jim

Yes, it is, Brian. I’m glad you raised that. That’s the whole point of our HOPE program. When people volunteer to — we’ve helped people in terrible grief. Then after a while, they feel good and they say, “Oh, we want to reach out and help, too.” So they’ll join our program. We train them a little bit and they come with us. To see the laughter when we all get together, from Vancouver to — I’m trying to think, I don’t think we have anybody from Newfoundland right now, but to Cape Breton, and we laugh and we have fun. Just sitting here with you two right now makes me feel good. It’s part of the good part of Paul’s death, having me meet you. It makes me feel good.

Brian

One thing that I’ve been taught to do over the number of years by some doctors who really helped me out, is I’ve enjoyed this conversation a lot. It’s bringing back a lot of good memories, but it can be tough at times, too. It’s a grounding exercise. It’s just simply five, four, three, two, one. All that happens is I look around the room and I look at five individual colours and actually note what they are. Those glasses there have a blue tinge to them. That phone is black. That light over there is green. Your tie has got multiple gray, black, and blue in it.

Just as I say those things out loud, it brings most of my body and my mind to go like, “Yes, you’re in Halifax. You got Laryssa on your right. You’re talking to Jim.” I’m not somewhere else. Then I actually can go on to four things I can touch and different textures. That brick wall right there, that’s not in Bosnia. That wall’s not in Afghanistan. That’s on the road we’re on in Halifax. Those are some things I have to do when moments get a little emotional.

Jim

Sure.

Brian

Man, it’s been good to see you.

Jim

Wow. That’s very nice to hear you say that. Makes me feel good.

Laryssa

Jim, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing a little bit of Paul with us.

Jim

Well, thank you for listening.

Laryssa

Thank you.

Jim

I appreciate that. You got me in the mood now where I could talk for another couple of hours.

Brian

Well, then maybe we’ll have to have him back on a different episode. That is us today wrapping up. Thank you, Jim.

Jim

Well, thank you.

Brian

Thanks for sharing your memories of Paul. That is another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

[music]

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts. Be the first to know when our next episode comes up.

Brian

If you know someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you, the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at atlasVeteransca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message, or leave a review on this episode. Let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.