Episode 25 – Road to recovery: Josh Muir on alcohol and military culture

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 25 — ROAD TO RECOVERY: JOSH MUIR ON ALCOHOL AND MILITARY CULTURE

Brian

You found our podcast. We are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families and specifically, mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals, we’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families. We’re in Winnipeg and we’re joined today by Canadian Forces Veteran, Josh Muir. This is actually home.

Josh Muir

Originally home, yes. I haven’t lived here in about 30 years, but I definitely grew up here.

Brian

As an outsider, is it Winnipegger? Is it Pegtonian? What do you actually call people that are from here?

Josh

I guess Winnipegger.

Brian

All right. You’re living in Vancouver now.

Josh

Living in Vancouver.

Brian

As usual for our episodes here, I’m joined by Laryssa Lamrock. We’ve been traveling a little bit. The reason we’re in Winnipeg and joined by Josh is we’re here for a conference called the CIMVHR Forum, by the Canadian Institute Military Health Veteran Research. It’s there, I just spat it all out. That’s why we’re in town, but we’re sitting down today and we’re going to be talking about the very specific nature of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and alcohol.

It’s not just the world of addiction. Alcohol is special. It has a special place in the culture and it is — I won’t say endorsed, but it is around, it is everywhere. It is, in my opinion, different. It’s hard to put the two things together, but you’ll be given a speech sometimes about driving safe and doing smart things. Then there’s three bars on base. There are formal functions, there are toasts, there are all those things that are also happening at the same time. Laryssa, that’s one of the things we’d been talking about before we knew that Josh could come to the table on this because it’s so prevalent in military life.

Laryssa

I’ve shared with listeners before that I’ve been married twice. My first relationship was with a military member, and I met him at happy hour, actually, when I was delivering Kentucky Fried Chicken to the Junior Ranks’ Mess. It is very much part of the culture. Even as a Family member on the periphery, it was something that I was inducted to in some certain ways as well.

Brian

I’ll tell you both, the truth is the next time I’m invited to the mess, I’m going. I can’t go to the mess dinner because it’s right now and I’m out of town, but I will go to those functions, I will participate, I will certainly be around. On the other hand, I can’t pretend that I don’t see what I’ve seen. I’ve seen people join the military and alcohol ruin them. That’s one of the things we’re going to get into today. Just the conversation, Josh, when someone says, “Hey, let’s sit down and have a talk about alcohol,” what’s the first thing that comes to your mind?

Josh

It seems to me like it would be something that would be a serious conversation and one where we would talk about its potential dangers and ills. In fact, I just wanted to briefly mention something that I remembered last night after our conversation, and it was on my very basic training course that was wrapping up. A sergeant instructor took us all aside and talked a little bit about mess life and mess culture, and how it was a huge part of the military culture. However, it had its very major dangers. This was all a bunch of young recruits being told by this guy.

I went down the road of eventually getting so deep into alcohol that I was stealing rations and eating those because I didn’t want any of my money to go anywhere except alcohol. There are these twin faces that I’ve always been confronted with on the one hand, very real acceptance of the dangers of alcohol and on the other, having every part of the culture inextricably linked with the consumption of alcohol.

Brian

That’s the thing. I think it’s very true that the Canadian Armed Forces has made massive strides towards addressing this issue. One of the things, though, that I remind the people I work with is Veterans aren’t serving today. They’re not getting out tomorrow. Some of them got out 30, 20, 10, five years ago. No matter what you change in the Canadian Armed Forces today, we’re Veterans of the era that we served. Whatever was going on then is what happened to that person.

Things have changed significantly like drinking on ships is significantly different. Alcohol being allowed on deployments or not allowed on deployments, that has changed. So much has changed, the attitudes are better, and I would say people, leaders do, to a large degree, know what we’re dealing with. The Veteran who’s 70 and served in the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s still served at that time. What was the relationship with the military and alcohol as you see it during the era you served?

Josh

There was a marriage. If you want to refer to a relationship, it was definitely a committed long-term marriage. There was really no getting around the — again, to misuse or overuse the word “relationship,” that every aspect of military, specifically army life and booze had because, at the end of an exercise, there was booze. At the end of a large exercise, there was booze. For every formal occasion, for every rather informal occasion, any sort of social occasion.

We’re not talking about something that’s aberrant from social civilian life, it just seemed like because there were these long periods of its denial like you suggested, especially with field time, that when it was available, it became excessive. It did. It was always associated with binge drinking, despite the fact that we were dressed in our fineries. It was a piss-up. Every time alcohol was consumed, it was a piss-up.

Laryssa

So it seems like the culture almost imposed that binge drinking pattern because there’d be times where you would be — whether it was on deployment or in the field, that access to alcohol would be limited or non-accessible, but then they would be holding a course after party or things like that, and there would be an excess of it available. It almost led to that type of relationship, I guess.

Brian

I think one thing that has always stood out to me in this is, let’s talk about uniforms. When you’re doing something in the public eye that’s formal, you’ll be in a thing called DEU, “distinct environmental uniform,” I believe it is. Your dress uniform. Whenever you’re doing some hands-on work, whether it’s in the office or you’re out in the field or you’re training, you’re probably wearing a uniform called combats. Then there’s this other one called patrols.

Let’s talk about mess kit. We have a uniform just for drinking in. Think about that. Can you imagine any other career out there that largely has a very expensive all-AD suit because they’re either made out of what’s a doe-skin or barathea. You’re paying $1,000 for this thing and you will not wear it in anything other than a mess environment. We have a uniform for drinking in. That’s the honour and special place that it had in the culture.

Josh

It’s absolutely a part of the culture. I recently attended a mess function as a civilian member now earlier this year. Despite the fact that I now no longer drink, when the port came around, it was so instinctual and ingrained in me that I held the port bottle and began to pour until the Regimental Sargeant Major (RSM) at the time, who was aware of my sobriety, actually came over, intervened and said, “I want you to have pop there. I appreciate you trying to maintain the culture and the tradition, but it’s not necessary.”

That was a rare introduction to me that the idea of not drinking has somewhat taken hold, but the fact that it was almost enforced drinking routine and tradition definitely illustrates what you’re saying is correct.

Brian

The muscle memory to reach for the decanter, it was there.

Josh

Not to allow it to touch the table as per tradition, absolutely, it was there.

Laryssa

Josh, we’ve been referring to this as a relationship or a marriage. Do you want to share a little bit about when you knew it was time to divorce, time to separate, and your progression in your relationship with alcohol?

Josh

I think that realistically, I had a few eye-opening incidents for many years now that showed me that heavy drinking and binge drinking especially was really not very healthy or conducive to moving forward in life. I guess I reached my final place where I had to make a change when I realized that I would not be reuniting with my partner and that if I kept going down the path that I was, I would also be losing my son. I finally found the one thing I was not prepared to lose in my life, so I had to lose something else. In my case, that was not just alcohol, but it was also my relationship with it.

Laryssa

We had a conversation the other night about what gets someone to that point of overusing alcohol. What you shared with me was unusual. Atlas focuses on Veteran and Family mental health. My spouse is a Veteran. He defines himself as an alcoholic. He hasn’t drank for a couple of decades ever since I’ve known him, but he’s educated me that he’s not a former alcoholic, he’s not a recovering alcoholic, he is an alcoholic. That’s his own description.

For him, the reason why he chose alcohol was a little bit different than what you shared for me. I’m assuming for my spouse that it had to do with mental health injuries. We’ve had some conversations about that. I know of other Veterans and Families I’ve supported in the past. It’s been to numb mental health injuries or traumatic events. For you, it sounded like it was a little bit different.

Josh

I didn’t have much of a relationship with alcohol previous to the Army. I had beers and would have alcohol on the weekends as any teenager does. Until I was 19 and post my basic, I really don’t think that I was married to it in that same way. I definitely knew about it, I knew alcohol, I did have a relationship with it, but it wasn’t a problematic one. I think a large part of my growing problem, even as a younger person, was literally because it was so clearly encouraged in almost every way.

Brian

Last night it struck me as we were setting up the conversation for today, making sure we got ourselves in order, where we’re going to go, where we’re not going to go, where do we meet? In a bar, because we’re in a hotel and that’s where there is meeting space. It’s moments like that I think I’m reminded of just how prevalent it is in our society, that kind of culture, and then how normal it is in the military culture.

Generally when you get orders, someone does the formal, this is the plan, we’re gathered around a map model, that’s where you get the instructions as what’s going to happen. What do we do when we actually figure out how we’re really going to make this plan work? We go to mess. Guaranteed, that’s how it works. There we are yesterday, talking about what we’re going to be discussing today in regards to alcohol, and the only place to meet is a bar.

One thing that you mentioned as we were talking is, when do you know that you have to leave that environment? You obviously could sit down there, you just did, but you illuminated a little bit for me about when does Josh know that it’s time to walk away from this environment.

Josh

It’s been a lengthy process to get to know those limits. The first time that I became sober from alcohol, it took about a year. I know now that I was going to bars, I was hanging out the same as I had before, just not drinking. I know in hindsight that I was really just waiting for my next opportunity to drink. With my most recent foray into sobriety coming up on three years now, I slowly but surely came to the realization that I actually did have to make a life change, not just a moderate tweak to the lifestyle.

I would say, in answer to your question, that somewhere around the second to third drink when people are putting them down range is when I now have to leave because that is when — I hate to say it because I was a participant in it in many scenarios over the many years — it is obvious that that is when to me, at least, the conversation becomes repetitive and circuitous. It just makes me so uncomfortable now that I physically must go. I do have a tolerance to be around alcohol, but it’s actually the behaviour that once again — I think it embarrasses me thinking about looking in the mirror, and so I have to go.

Laryssa

It’s interesting because it’s not your own behavior you’re gauging that on, it’s those around you. Are you taking that as a reminder or a prompt or an indicator? Actually, last night, you mentioned something to me about, I can’t remember what you called it, playing out the scenario or —

Josh

Playing out the tape to the end.

Laryssa

Playing the tape to the end, yes. Tell me more about that.

Josh

It’s a pretty easy and an early cue in early treatment. It literally just involves you facing temptation, facing the idea that you might have this first drink that you really don’t want to do, but that obviously your addiction and other things are prompting you to do. It’s a mental exercise to literally envision what would happen in the scenario that you take that first drink and then all of the other potential scenarios to play out.

Generally speaking, those of us who have acknowledged the negative experiences we’ve had, we know the end result is going to be poor. That is a powerful tool to say no in the moment if that’s a slight craving that you can say, well, realistically, what’s going to happen after that first sip even could be very poor. Play the tape to the end. It’s been very effective.

Brian

Part of your story is also what you’ve done for Canada, what you did for the Forces, two deployments to Afghanistan?

Josh

That’s right.

Brian

In those times, you certainly demonstrated that you can have no alcohol. Now, would you look at that as — is that proof that someone’s not an alcoholic because they can obey the law, obey the military instruction and do an eight-month deployment without touching any?

Josh

No, I don’t think so at all. I think that those people like myself that maybe didn’t identify this way at that time, but that breezed through the eight-month deployment or more several times almost back-to-back without alcohol, where there’s a reference to what’s called a “dry drunk.” I think that’s someone who is either flirting with or into full-blown alcoholism but that doesn’t have access to or has quit in a different way but is still just waiting for their opportunity to drink again.

I think that is what most of those soldiers and various military members that deploy that are hardcore alcoholics, they’re still professional enough that they can put that aside, but that their addiction is absolutely waiting for them upon their return from the combat zone or mission.

Brian

It does seem to me that, even in my own experience, zero is easier to have than one.

Josh

Definitely.

Brian

Is that this thing with treatment where you’re talking about playing it to the end? Is it basically an acknowledgment that this is a domino, touch one, they’re going down?

Josh

Absolutely. That once you’ve crossed that line, that there isn’t any crossing back, and that one might end up being the same potential damaging effect to your life as 10, yes.

Brian

What positive things can you say happened to your body in these last three years when you achieve sobriety?

Josh

One of my greatest justifications, and Laryssa touched on it about all the different justifications that become for drinking, obviously, most people start it off as a per-yearly social and fun thing, and it usually ends up either, hopefully for their sake, staying that way or it takes some turns. I would say that one of my greatest justifications over the many years was pain management and sleep management.

I had fooled myself to believing that nothing except for alcohol was capable of assisting me with my very dramatic and high pain levels and also my inability to sleep properly. I think for years that was at least partially true and that aspect was managing my issues, but it got so out of control that was literally one of the biggest first examples of my feeling that I was healing from my alcoholism, was that after about four or five months, I began to sleep through the night. I had not had that experience in a decade, maybe more.

Laryssa

We talk about rock bottom. I think it’s a term a lot of people hear, particularly when it comes to addiction. And in chatting with other Family members, they want to get their loved ones to help, to treatment. My observation is that, unfortunately, every person has their own individual rock bottom. What that looks like for each person is different and, unfortunately you have to let them get there. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Josh

That is probably one of the biggest bummers about this whole process, is that, like you said, somebody can have a rock bottom that would seem barely harrowing to another person, and some person can go literally all the way down to being homeless and broke on the streets for their rock bottom to be met. As far as an indicator of how to get someone help before they reach that, I honestly don’t have a lot of insight as far as anyone besides myself.

However, just keeping an eye on people that you know are having problems like that is obviously very useful because you really don’t know when someone might be amenable to listening and that could derail the requirement to hit rock bottom, honestly.

Brian

To achieve sobriety, do you have to change your social circle? Are there people that you’ve had to go, “I can’t hang out with this group anymore because I know the way that goes?”

Josh

That is what they recommend in treatment, but as my personal experience has indicated, my first year that I went and attempted to become a sober person, I didn’t change my lifestyle. I didn’t change any of the social scenarios or circles that I had. I eventually was led back to alcohol, unsurprisingly. In this next iteration, I have definitely had to do that. There are certain major party friends, for example, that I can’t associate with. There are certain scenarios and establishments that I no longer frequent.

Those that I still am able to or still am required to in some way, I just have to limit my time there. It’s a big responsibility, essentially, getting sober because you really do have to look at every single small aspect of your life.

Brian

Does it feel conflicting? What I’m getting at here is, the number one piece of advice I’d give to any Veteran that’s suffering is to connect with your peers. Your buddies are going to be your network. Then I wonder, how does that work?

Josh

It’s more difficult because to return to the beginning of the conversation, we obviously talked about how prevalent the drinking is. Yes, the culture has shifted in the sense that if you put up your hand and say, “Hey, I’m hurting and I need help,” you’re not likely to be immediately judged, but you’re also going to have a hard time associating with any of your colleagues that does not involve alcohol.

Brian

Let’s talk for a sec about when we were all part of this military Family. There’s garrison and then there’s field. Everyone loves to say they’re a good field soldier and you don’t want to be known as the garritrooper, but there’s this third entity. Nowhere on your yearly performance evaluation report (PER), your yearly review of how you’ve done, does it say, “Does he drink and hang out with the guys?” It absolutely is there. In fact, a number of people have mentioned that they felt in order to get promoted, you had to be part of the social life of the unit. If you’re not going to the mess, you’re not participating in this third entity that we don’t always acknowledge exists, but it absolutely exists.

Josh

Yes, it absolutely does. There are all kinds of pressure. It may not be overt, but you’re right, it’s absolutely there. That social construct has an immense amount of pressure on its members to consume alcohol and to be social in that context.

Laryssa

A couple of different things I’m thinking about. I want to go back to something you said earlier, refer to it as this next iteration. I think there might be a misnomer for some folks that you go to an inpatient treatment, you work on your sobriety and then you’re sober.

Josh

Luckily for me, this time it has worked that way, but maybe by saying this iteration, I meant that this is my second attempt at sobriety. This one was, in hindsight now, I think I’m able to say hopefully my real one because I see now that I felt an external obligation to attend treatment my first time and to get sober. I obviously now in hindsight didn’t really want to, and I still was so wedded to that culture that despite having just recently been released, that’s what I immediately and most importantly wanted to get back to.

Laryssa

You really need to be honest with yourself and be ready for it. I wonder, do you feel like relapse is sometimes part of recovery? Is that —

Josh

The treatment experts do suggest that. I think that what they mean by that is that you don’t — much like the military if you failed, you have to pick yourself up and keep going again. You can’t start to bemoan that failure. I wish that wasn’t so, but for me, in my experience and from what I’ve observed, it really is a part of it. I think that your success is based on how well you pick yourself up from that if that happens.

Brian

When people go on inpatient treatment, I’ve gone to a number of different active live-in counseling programs myself, I would say that day one of pretty much all of them looks somewhat the same. it’s an intake process. What’s day two like?

Josh

I think that I can best describe it as a very lonely feeling and pretty scary, really. It’s not so much that, especially for those of us who’ve had lots of experience living in different places, far from home, all that stuff, it’s not that. It was really that I had found some either rock bottom, to use the popular term, or a dead-end alley that I had no way to get out of other than to be here. At that point, I think one’s self-esteem is quite low. I definitely had my doubts as to whether or not I was going to be able to be successful there.

Brian

Can you shed some light on what the second last day was? When you’re going home tomorrow.

Josh

It’s a lot less lonely because you’ve obviously created a community there. You’re forced to, really, but it’s filled with apprehension because, again, much like a military course, you’re in a closed environment. It’s extremely easy to apply all the knowledge and the skills that you’ve learned. Now you’re going out into the real world to try to apply those to your actual life that doesn’t involve you being locked into one small compound and being force-fed a bunch of useful, logical information all day. I felt very apprehensive. I was confident, I really was, but I definitely felt apprehension.

Laryssa

What advice would you give to someone who might be — maybe inpatient treatment is on the horizon, they’re considering it and it sounds like treatment sucks? It’s not easy. It’s a lot of hard work and introspection. Do you have any thoughts for people who might be there or maybe going there on how to get through day three? Then for them with that apprehension going home, how to get through day three once they’re back at home.

Josh

I’d like to default to some of the platitudes that they give you in treatment, which is “trust the process.” It’s difficult to internalize or even hear on your first few days, but once you’re more deeply in the process, it’s absolutely true. I guess the other advice would be to go now. It doesn’t suck, actually. The first day or two does, maybe. Again, just because you’re like, “How have I led myself this astray?” It’s the experience that you’ll have there. Again, this is strictly speaking from my personal experience, will be exactly what you put into it.

The more you put in and the more honest you are, the more you will get out of it. Absolutely. If you’re going there without the intent of being open and honest, it’s potentially a waste of your time. If you’ve accepted that you need that, then you better accept everything that they’re going to tell you and go in there with open mind.

Laryssa

And humility, it sounds like.

Josh

I think that almost comes along with you when you’re there because you’re pretty well forced to confront whose decisions have led you there, and they’re no one else’s but yours.

Brian

How is talking about this? What are you going to do after this conversation? Do you have to go through a little bit of a process to recenter yourself? There’s no alcohol in the room, but we’re talking about it and we’re revisiting some of those thoughts and emotions. Does even having the conversation put you in a different place that you’ve got to recenter from?

Josh

If we’d had this conversation two years ago, I would probably have said yes, but I think that for me, at least, the greater the distance that I have from my former drug of choice, the easier it gets to stay away from it just because I have to confront all of those realities that I was able to either ignore or willfully chose to ignore during my drinking phases. Frankly, no, actually.

Brian

There’s this term I love to bat around called “healthy enough to help.” One thing that I’ve found regardless of ailment is that a lot of times when Veterans are suffering, something will happen where they come up for that one gasp of air. They think because they’re breathing again, that now they’re ready to help the other people around them. Quite often, they’re not. They’re still drowning in it. They’ve just found a little bit of a reprieve.

I know I went through that. I know looking back, there was no way for five, six months after coming out of Afghanistan that I was in any position to be educating people how to handle their thoughts, process their emotions. I know now that I’m still working through a lot of it. When is someone like you healthy enough to help? When would you say, “Okay, now I can be a peer and mentor that next guy that’s just put up his hand?”

Josh

I guess that would be a pretty subjective answer but honestly, for me, I think that I started to realize that I could in fact go back to giving back once I had essentially neither dreams nor thoughts of relapse or of alcohol. I would say that for me, that took a year of actual sobriety. I think some can get there more quickly and others will take longer. Honestly, you know as well as I do, you both do that even when one isn’t ready to help, that there’s a great pull to help others, even if you know that you still need help yourself.

I hadn’t really given up some of my assistance to others in that time, but in that year period, it finally dawned on me and I’m not exactly sure why, that what I’d been told over and over, which was being selfish and putting yourself first isn’t a bad thing when it comes to potentially not only righting yourself, but then making yourself once again available to help others.

Brian

You just mentioned, though, you dreamt about drinking.

Josh

Oh, yes.

Brian

Really?

Josh

I dreamt about it. There were moments that it was so vivid, and I can remember this when I quit smoking cigarettes as well, that I would wake up filled with regret that I’d had drinks last night and then have to come to, so to speak, and realize, no, that was purely a dream. There was no socializing, there was no alcohol. Those dreams stuck with me for months, definitely.

Brian

Wow. I’ve noticed one feeling I certainly had. I loved training soldiers. I loved taking people that honestly couldn’t walk straight, basically, and then two months later, you’ve turned out something that can actually help the country. It’s pretty amazing. That moment when — for the civilians listening to this, a process called an Administrative Review, Medical Employment Limitations (ARMEL), which basically was them saying, “You can’t be a soldier anymore. Medically, Brian, you’re done.” The idea that I didn’t get to help soldiers again really, really bothered me and I satisfied that by getting overly into peer support.

I ran into some gentlemen yesterday that remember me from a program, but what I had to tell them is like, “Yes, I did six of those programs back-to-back because I was trying to scratch an itch, and I don’t know if I did a good job on programs two to six.” I advise people that you really got to come to terms with getting out, and you really got to know what emotion it is you’re trying to fix to be healthy enough to help. That’s been the path for me. How does that sound?

Josh

That really resonates. I can see now that when I first came back from my treatment center and was trying to live this new life that I went pretty gung ho, and like I said, it took me a year to realize that I was actually not in a position to be super helpful because I still had so much work that was required on myself to eventually ideally make myself not only stronger and more cohesive, but then I would then be able to offer a lot more to others.

Laryssa

Josh, something I wanted to explore with you was you talked about alcohol being your drug of choice, and you do have physical pain. As we’re sitting here, I can see you stretching and moving things. A lot of Veterans are turning to other substances to help with sleep, you mentioned sleep was an issue for you, to help with chronic pain. Is there ever any concern for you using other types of substances?

I know in our home, for me as a Family member, my husband, I’ve disclosed he’s an alcoholic, an addict, he has an addictive personality. When he started to use cannabis for pain relief, that scared me as a Family member because I thought, “This is going to be a slippery slope.” I wonder how many other Veterans might have that same concern. Is that something that was a concern for you? I’m making assumptions, I don’t know how you manage your pain.

Josh

That was definitely a concern for me. I did have access to the medical cannabis. For about a year or so, I tried just the CBD mostly for the pain and also as a sleep assistant, and personally got very little use out of that. I was very reluctant to start to add any THC-containing products for exactly the reason you just described. Also, my pre-army experience of smoking dope as a teenager, it’s very different than what’s out there now.

I have been lucky enough that I have been able to have some guidance there and to go very slowly. These days, it’s really not a big concern. I do consume some marijuana products, I don’t really get high. They actually are surprisingly effective at pain and sleep management.

Laryssa

It sounds like so it was very intentional for you. You reached out to get someone to help you and guide you. It was intentional.

Josh

A lot of experimentation, going slowly and making sure that what I’m doing wasn’t going to be putting me into a position that I would find compromising, exactly.

Brian

What’s in a name in our organization is the Atlas Institute for Veterans and Families. There’s one other area I’d like to go in this conversation. We’ve talked about deploying, it’s a big part of military life. We’ve talked about what does and doesn’t happen in leave and things like that. What’s the drinking reality amongst the spouses when we pack up and disappear to somewhere in Europe or we’re off to Afghanistan for six, eight months? What really happens back in the homes in relation to alcohol?

Laryssa

What people didn’t see was the big smile that came across my face when you asked me that question. I’m like, “Next question.” Of course, like I said, I was indoctrinated into that. Met my former spouse at happy hour, looked forward to TGIF or TGIT, whatever day they had it. A lot of my social circle and connections happened at the Junior Ranks’ Mess. Then when my spouse was deployed, there was a group of spouses. We were there to support each other.

You and I have talked about that before, Brian, that the camaraderie that you folks have when you’re deployed. Families have similar social connections here. A lot of it was about going to Greg’s place in Chilliwack or whatever the thing was as part of our social connection. Not only was alcohol part of the social connection but supporting someone with a mental health injury or physical injury, being a caregiver, the things that go along with that.

Families have their own illness and injuries as well. I have supported Family members when I was doing peer support who they themselves were dealing with addiction, whether it be alcoholism or shopping. I’m not being facetious or other drugs of choice. It is an issue. It can be an issue for Family members. I’m going to say potentially, unfortunately, for youth who may not understand.

Brian

That’s exactly the truth. For a whole host of reasons, including economics, adult children aren’t moving out of the home as quickly as they used to. Part of the Veteran and Family reality is it’s not just the Veteran that can be susceptible to this. The spouse, the 16-year-old sneaking booze in home, the 22-year-old that’s perfectly legal to go out and participate on their own. Everybody in that house deals with the stress of the job, everybody in that house can have the opportunity to have the same problems.

All too often, I think, when we speak about alcoholism, it’s, well it is the Veteran, the alcoholic, Family violence. There’s almost this assumption that we must be talking about him. It’s like, well, him and her serve these days. It could be anybody in the house that’s experiencing that.

Laryssa

Unfortunately, alcohol seems to be an easy coping mechanism.

Brian

As we start to wrap up here, Josh, you served your country for a number of years, you deployed twice to the worst place Canada’s gone in 50 years to some degree, at least that’s my interpretation of it. Not without loss. You and I have lost friends over there and we’ve lost friends since. How do you handle when those moments get tough, when those memories come back, now that you don’t have that other coping mechanism that we would naturally turn to? What do you do when you’re having a rough day when you’re commemorating someone, when it’s hard?

Josh

Luckily for me now, I’ve had a bit of breathing space here with getting on to three years, but I can tell you that — we’ll go back to Laryssa’s mention of my motto of playing the tape to the end. Even if these are so hardwired in my system that my hand is missing that container in it, I’m able to think to myself pretty quickly and in almost every scenario now, what will happen after that first drink? It’s the playing of the tape to the end.

I think to myself, “Is this going to make this moment more monumentous? Is it going to celebrate this person’s life even more?” The answer is always no. Luckily for me, I do have to have this struggle though, I will admit, but I’ve prepared my arguments to myself in advance and basically all scenarios. I think that is part of what’s required.

Brian

What are you going to do right after this when we’re done here just to make sure Josh is back to center and you’re in control?

Josh

These opportunities have been part of the healing for me, honestly, because I know that what had kept me in the dark and ill was the lack of being able to talk about it or being truthful. Honestly, if you can’t be truthful and speak it out loud, then there’s no possible way you’re going to be truthful with yourself. It’s yourself that is going to lead you to wellness or not.

Laryssa

Thank you very much, Josh, for joining us, for being vulnerable and sharing your story, and for paying it forward, as you had said before. As with most of our podcast episodes, we do put resources in the description below. I want to encourage people that if you or a loved one are struggling with addiction, if you have some questions or curiosities, we will be putting some resources in the description.

Also, want to thank you, Josh, for sharing your story in another form as a digital storyteller. If folks would like to hear your touching story about you and your son and your journey, people can pop over to the Atlas website to have a look at that. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for supporting the community. We appreciate your time with us today.

Brian

Josh, thanks for defending Canada, let’s start there. I really appreciate you agreeing to have this conversation, but also the candid nature of how you’ve handled it. I really appreciate it.

Josh

I appreciate the opportunity. Honestly, this is healing for me.

Brian

There we are with Josh Muir wrapping up in Winnipeg, another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

[music]

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you, the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at atlasveterans.ca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message, or leave a review on this episode. Let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.