Episode 28 – Turning pain into purpose with guests Emily Zufelt and Andrew Gough

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 28 — TURNING PAIN INTO PURPOSE WITH GUESTS EMILY ZUFELT AND ANDREW GOUGH

Laryssa

Here we are with another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission podcast. Thanks for joining us for this episode today. There’s a couple different things about this particular episode. One is my new baritone voice that I’m trying out [chuckles]. I’m just coming off of a cold. Something else is that Brian is currently away, Brian McKenna is normally my partner in crime and co-host. We are really excited to have a guest co-host to bring the Veteran perspective to today’s conversation.

I’m excited to introduce Andrew Gough. Andrew Gough is a Canadian Armed Forces Veteran and medically retired police officer. He’s a passionate advocate for the mental health of Veterans and first responders and has taken his diagnosis of PTSD as a driving force to create Veterans and Everyday Heroes (V-Eh!), a not-for-profit organization. V-Eh! focuses on providing wellness initiatives for Veterans and emergency responders with the goal of reducing the stigma associated with mental health. He is also a newly appointed chaplain for Boots On The Ground.

Andrew has received numerous awards for his advocacy work, which includes public speaking, awareness campaigns, fundraising and support to the community. He’s also received the Sacrifice Medal for Injuries Sustained by a Hostile Action while deployed in Tripoli, Libya during Operation LOBE in 2014, which in itself, Andrew, there’s so much that we could chat with you about today. I think a lot of people should learn a little bit more about that. Andrew, you have been a great supporter and a lot of engagement with Atlas. Some folks might remember you from a podcast that, actually, you did with us. You were guests on the podcast with your lovely wife, Elizabeth, talking about the experience of Reserves and Reservist Families.

You were recently a panelist with us at the Family Summit talking about parenting with PTSD. I remember even, I think your first engagement with us back in the day was to talk about service animals. You came to speak to the staff at Atlas about that with your buddy Riggs there, just to name a few things. We just thought that you would be the perfect person to be our first guest co-host for Mind Beyond the Mission today.

Andrew Gough

Beyond excited and incredibly honored to be on that list of people that you would invite to be here and to share this experience with you and especially who we have as a guest today, such a dear friend of mine. I’m really excited to dig into our topic today and have some great conversation.

Laryssa

Yes, me too. This is going to be a great conversation. As you and I were chatting, Andrew, and I approached you and invited you to be co-host, we were pondering what type of topic we would want to explore and our guest came to mind for both of us right away and where we landed on is our conversation today will be a little bit about turning pain into purpose. I think it’s something that both you and Emily share in common and I admire and I’ve said before, I just can only imagine the ripple effect that each of you has had in your work.

I think I’m going to ask you a question first. We’re going to introduce Emily in a second. Emily Zufelt is a first responder and so I wanted to just talk to you a little bit about the link. You are a Veteran, you are a medically retired police officer, so you have a foot in both camps, if I can say. Seeing how Emily is not specifically a Veteran or Veteran Family or have connection in the military, but having that first responder experience, what do you see the link of experiences between first responders and military members and Veterans?

Andrew

Having done both concurrently for pretty much the exact same length of time, I started as a private soldier. At the same time, I started as a cadet with my police service. Having had my foot in both worlds and growing up with my foot in both worlds and having had the opportunity to be on operation, more so on the operation side of things, having been a Reserve soldier, not a regular first soldier and doing it every day, but getting ready for a move or a mission while so deployed, had the exact same feeling as putting on my duty belt for the day and going on to the streets of my city.

What we experience as first responders, it’s a daily occurrence for us. To be able to translate that into the Veteran world while, again, while deployed or if you’re a physician, such as military police members, medics look at SAR Techs, they are out there also experiencing much of what our first responders are experiencing on a daily basis due to the duties that they must accomplish.

A first responder lens is definitely, yes, it’s a parallel line, but there are a lot of connections, a lot of strings of connections to the experiences. Because when we talk about trauma, it should never be a measure of what happened, but how we experienced it. As a first responder, there is that very direct correlation between our trauma and as a first responder and that which one may experience as a soldier.

Laryssa

It’s something that in preparation for this we talked about that a little bit and I’ll try not to be vulgar, but we did talk about the bucket of poo, I guess I’ll just call it that. For my observation, never having served but observing people who have served in uniform, what they experience is beyond what most people have to on a daily occurrence or a regular occurrence. I think the experiences of trauma, maybe not how you got there, is a commonality.

I have provided support to both military Veteran Families and first responder Families. Really when a Family member is talking to me about how worried they are about their loved one who’s experienced trauma and maybe PTSD specifically, the stories are very similar and they have the same care and concern and love there.

Andrew

I think it’s important to acknowledge as well that Atlas serves members of the RCMP, which so many of them are doing front-line police work.

Laryssa

Absolutely. Let’s get our guest in here then. Emily Zufelt is a passionate and fierce advocate for first responders, military personnel and Veterans. As the creator and host of the globally acclaimed mental health podcast, What’s Your Twenty?, Emily has dedicated herself to educating and speaking out about PTSD and promoting posttraumatic growth. Her ability to connect with diverse audiences and convey impactful messages is a passion where she does really thrive. Her extensive experience began in public education with a Rape Crisis Centre and over 20 years as a police dispatcher, Emily.

In addition to her professional roles, Emily is a trauma-informed certified trauma and resiliency coach. She’s leveraging her deep knowledge of trauma to empower individuals and to promote healing, which is one of the things that just intrigued me and I wanted to chat more about her with. Her commitment to mental health advocacy is evident in her work where she uses her platform to educate, inspire and promote the message of hope, resilience and never giving up. She’s also the director of communications for Concussion Legacy Foundation Canada. We will likely put a link to Emily’s podcast, What’s Your Twenty?, in our description or links with the podcast. Welcome, Emily.

Emily Zufelt

Thank you so much, Laryssa, for having me. Andrew, it’s lovely to see you this morning. When I heard your bio, Laryssa, for Andrew, I wanted to say “and I want to add, my friend.” He’s my friend. Andrew already put that one in there. Thank you for having me.

Laryssa

We’re excited. Why do you do what you do, Emily? You are the host of a podcast. I see you have a couple of social media channels. You do advocacy to create awareness for mental health, trauma, posttraumatic growth. One of the things that I’d mentioned to you that I appreciated is that, through those channels and your advocacy you offer encouragement to people. You hold them accountable too, which I think is cool. You just say it like it is. Why do you choose to do what you do?

Emily

Because I was in the ditch myself. I was so down in that I didn’t know how to get out. I spent a period of my life, eight months to be exact, in bed, losing the use of my limbs, losing feeling in my face and my hands. I went through the gamut of what was going on with me. Did I have ALS, MS, all these things, when in fact it was none of the above. It was all somatic from trauma. I am a very somatic individual. When anxiety and depression get me at such a level, my body breaks down. That’s exactly what trauma is in the body.

When you have chronic pain, you have chronic stress it turns into disease. It turns into cancer, which I’m also a cancer survivor. Ironically enough, the cancer was in my throat. If that wasn’t the universe saying, “Speak!” and I’ve held my tongue for so long and I hid my truth for so long. The truth was I was severely unwell with PTSD, depression and anxiety. You wouldn’t have ever known because I was a rock star at work. I won’t ever say that I’m good at anything except my job. I could do it blindfolded on my head spinning. I would rather go to work and continue to put myself at risk than to come off of work and get well because I feared everything that I was going to lose.

I decided a whole bunch of catalysts took place. Those catalysts allowed me to get myself out of the ditch. That’s what it was right there was that if I felt this way, and the catalyst, Andrew being one of them, it was a video that Andrew did with the London Police Service, was about four or five years ago, Andrew, I believe.

Andrew

Yes.

Emily

I was just coming out of the height of my injury. I saw this stranger on a video talking about suicidal ideation, everything that he felt. I felt like I had found a kindred spirit that they not only knew exactly what I was going through, but he could understand it on a level that I couldn’t explain it. He was explaining it. Not only that, he was explaining it out loud on video to be replayed over and over again. I remember looking at this video and saying, “Are you kidding me? You’re saying that out loud. What are you doing?” But I’m so glad he did. That right there, that catalyst of shared experience and that “a-ha” meets you there.

I knew there were others out there. If Andrew could do that for me, if I was honest about what I was going through and feeling, and if I can find a way to get out of this, there’s got to be others out there that feel this way too. There is a way out. I didn’t think there was. My way out was suicide. That was originally my way out. Thankfully I had an anchor and my anchor was my son. He was and is still my why. Today, I’m able to say that my why is also myself. I didn’t have it enough for myself to save myself back then. I had enough for my son to save myself. Now, I’m enough to stay here. It’s a beautiful thing to feel that I want to be here.

Andrew

I remember when you reached out to me, Emily, I know exactly where I was. I remember most of what you said. We connected. I was at the police college as an instructor and you had reached out to me, asking if I would consider a phone call. It was so polite and almost written in a tone where I felt like you didn’t think I would reach back out. Like you didn’t deserve a response.

Emily

That’s true.

Andrew

I will say that that’s what made me do it because I there was almost as if I could feel something in that needed to be answered. I was on my lunch and I was sitting in the lunchroom and we connected and you had asked me very humbly if I would be a guest on this podcast, this project that you were creating. I’m not sure there was much hesitation. It was just an immediate yes. How blown away you were by that, that someone would even consider that and talk to you. Then you come all the way from your hometown, which is seven hours away, rent a place to stay, rent a studio to kick off this vision of yours, which ended up being some of your therapy.

I had just come out of the field and met you still in uniform, probably three days less a shower. When we recorded this two-part podcast that, still to this day, I hear people’s opinion on it and how much the information that we were speaking about, because both of us were very raw in the pursuit of where we currently are with our own endeavors, that it has helped them rearrange their perspective on mental health injuries and post traumatic growth.

Acceptance of our faulties and our faults and having the ability to climb out of that which injured us. If I have never thanked you for that opportunity, I do so now. Thank you for reaching out and including me in what you are creating. You’re tenacious. You stand out in a crowd and I will always support you and I will always wish great things for What’s Your Twenty? and everything that you touch.

Emily

That’s mind-blowing. I take that moment and I remember exactly where I was when I asked and I knew you had to be the first guest on the show without fail. I said “This has to be the man or the person that has to be on the show.” This was I think April timeline. We were still in the spring and my show was not started in any way. I think I may have started the social media pages, but I did not get the podcast up and running until November.

Then I called you again in November and said, “I’m ready.” [chuckles] It took months to get there and you still stood by your stood by your word. Yes, we had a couple hours in the studio, we said some of the most raw, real things. It was after the microphone shut off and we went outside and we were saying our goodbyes, and we must have stood outside in the driveway for another hour and a half.

Andrew

It was a while. You had a broken ankle.

Emily

I had a broken ankle, my God, you’re right. I did have a broken ankle. I fell down the stairs. Anyway, we stood outside and there was so much realness in that conversation. There was so much healing in that. That right there with that healing, trying to reach out and let others know that they are exactly where they should be. They’re feeling it for a reason and that they can move forward.

There is a way out. If you don’t know the way, it’s okay, nobody does in the beginning. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. If I felt this way and you felt this way, just imagine how many other people out there are feeling this way, who feel stuck in the dark and don’t have a clue how to get out of it. There are tons of us, tons of us. It just takes a conversation to say “You are normal, you’re completely normal.” This catalyst turned into being very cathartic and healing for myself. Andrew said it became part of my healing process.

Laryssa

Actually, something I wanted to ask you. Just as the two of you were talking about this, what an incredible experience, and each person as a military Veteran, first responder, most that I’ve met, one word that would come to mind is “selfless.” As you two were chatting, you each disclosed a little bit that you were at a raw place at that time where you mutually came together. You were still selfless and being vulnerable and talking about your trauma and what you struggled with and struggle with, in hopes of paying it forward and helping each other.

It sounded like that’s part of that journey and that recovery, but then reaching out and helping others in that recovery, as you said, that validation piece. Let’s maybe explore that a little bit more, Emily, I wanted to ask you, the work that you do in advocacy, What’s Your Twenty?, social media, those types of things, does that help you continue to help you in your own personal journey while you’re helping others?

Emily

Unequivocally, yes. Because PTSD or occupational stress injury, we know that it does not go away. Our brains are changed. We are changed as a person. We can learn to manage it, we can get better, we can heal, but we are susceptible to traumatic events and how we respond to them still. As I do these things and I put out the podcast and I meet people, I still go through my day-to-day challenges. I told you this week was an absolute shit show. I don’t know if you’re allowed to swear. This week for me was a shit show. It came at me from all angles. I had to take a step back and like an ostrich put my head in the sand.

The difference is me isolating out of fear for months at a time. Now is me taking a step back for quiet reflection, self-care, knowing how to handle and manage, how the tremors are in my body. Now knowing I’m going to come out of it. I know I’m going to come out of it. It doesn’t last months anymore. It’s been days. Here I am doing a podcast now. That’s the other thing that people need to understand is that, yes, once we do enter recovery or earn recovery, there will still be challenges. It doesn’t mean you’ve made a step back.

It doesn’t mean that you’re losing ground, it just means you’re human and you’re normal. This has to be something that is common knowledge, which isn’t common knowledge. This isn’t common knowledge that people think that when you take a step back or you struggle with something or a challenge, that you are now faltering somehow. In fact, you’re not. You’re not faltering. You’re just having to take a step back and acknowledge and recognize and feel and be present to go.

This is a hard week. It’s affecting me in a way that I may not enjoy, but I need to acknowledge it. I’m going to take the time it needs to get through it. I’ll come back in a couple of days. That’s what healing and recovery is all about. If we allowed ourselves that grace, and I don’t mean just the people going through it, but those of our loved ones, our colleagues who haven’t been through PTSD, have a little bit of grace for understanding or just allowing their co-workers or their loved ones to be who they need to be with an occupational stress injury or PTSD.

Andrew

Emily, I’m going to bring up another S word and that is that concept of stigma because you bring up this point of — oh, you didn’t use this word, but a transition between allowing the injury to overcome and take us versus finding a reason, a purpose. You talk about your why. Does stigma play a role in getting there faster?

Emily

In what way? What do you mean, does stigma play a role in getting there faster?

Andrew

As an individual who is experiencing this, you have a PTSI and OSI. There are steps that are taken before we can acknowledge within ourselves that we are injured and that we need to get better, and is there a role of stigma in our lives that prohibits us from reaching those goals faster?

Emily

Oh, absolutely, and there’s two forms of stigma. There’s the stigma from the exterior and that’s what we absolutely fear from our co-workers, our loved ones, our Family, our friends. From that stigma, then we shut our mouths. We hide. We pretend like nothing’s happening, and so that we keep going and we keep suppressing all the trauma and all the issues and not feeling. That hinders us and delays us, but then there’s the self-stigma, and that’s the second one. Actually, dare I say that that’s the worst, and the self-stigma that I had was the language that I would use against myself.

I would use words as weapons against myself. “You’re broken. You’re damaged. You’re fucked up. You’re worthless. You’re no good at any of this. You shouldn’t be here. You’d be better if you weren’t gone. The people that you’ve left behind would be better.” Yes, that self-stigma, it derails us. It takes us right off of any healing path and we have to change that narrative for ourselves or else we don’t get out of it. As we get stronger and change that narrative for ourselves, what the naysayers and the outside stigma and the external stigma says doesn’t seem to matter anymore. That’s another beauty of healing. It derails us and it prohibits healing in such a major way.

Andrew

How much does the purpose of What’s Your Twenty? lend to that process of healing for you?

Emily

Purpose is everything. It’s absolutely everything, particularly as a person who gives themself to service, whether you’re a first responder, military, Veteran, retired, partially retired, people who go off work. Whenever we are at work and we’re on, we have a purpose. We have a reason to get up every day. We’re going in and we’re serving. We’re serving people. We’re serving our country. We’re serving our Families.

We feel like we are needed, and we feel like we’re doing something with our lives that is meaningful. Now, when we go off ill with our injury or when we retire and we haven’t sought any help, all of a sudden that purpose is taken from us, and when we don’t have that purpose, we don’t have that reason to get up in the morning.

Andrew

I find the processes involved, having gone through the medical release process through the Canadian Armed Forces, as well as the WSIB process in Ontario, it’s not encouraging of healing. It’s not encouraging of continuing purpose because there’s this, again, attachment to stigma and this fallacy that if I go and do something, if I go volunteer, if I find that minor purpose that I obviously should be able to return to full pre-injury duties.

It’s often frowned upon and people hide it. My involvement in my own organization, and I know with yours, at the beginning, it was a big hide-and-seek game because we knew that this was providing us our purpose and driving us to posttraumatic growth, but it also could become a thorn in our side when it comes to our wellness. It was a treatment for our injury, but not supported by the larger organizations.

Laryssa

It’s hard to express that or quantify it in a way that makes sense on what you’re getting back and how it contributes to your posttraumatic growth and probably is the antidote, I guess, to that self-stigmatization when you can find that you have purpose and you’re helping others and regaining some of that you experience within your careers.

Andrew

And so much so for Veterans and first responders, as Emily said.

Emily

Take, for example, a first responder who’s been off with their injury and they have found the courage and the healing and the fortitude to come back to work. Now, a lot of people will, with the stigma, go, “Oh, look who’s coming back. Oh, nice they had the summer off,” or something like that. The power, the courage and the energy it takes to hold your head up and to walk back into an office after you’ve been off with an occupational stress injury is bar none. That person’s the strongest one. That person has strength. For them to come in — but they most likely have restrictions because that injury sometimes is a permanent injury and you cannot go back to pre-injury work — so you come back to the job, you are being stigmatized, you cannot go back to your pre-injury work, and you end up getting put in a broom closet size of a room and tapping keys. Now, when you have this large, I’m going to take for an example a large 6’4” strapping man who used to be on the tactical team and would run when those bells and whistles rang and they put their bodies up against everything. Now you’ve got them tapping keys in a basement. You tell me why that they don’t see that there’s no purpose for that individual in that room.

That person’s depression gets deeper. Their self-worth becomes farther down. There is more suicidal ideation when back to work with no purpose than there is when they’re off. I can state that as firsthand knowledge because I don’t need a reason to stay in bed. My depression and my injury gave that to me already. Every day, I’ve got a reason to stay in bed. It’s my injury. I need a reason to get out of that bed every day. That is purposeful work. When you have that strapping lad who used to go and do everything, he needs a purpose at the end of the day, not a closet broom in the basement tapping keys.

What can we do for these individuals who are strong enough to come back to work after their injury? Why don’t you put them on the wellness team? Why don’t you actually utilize their experience as a strength and get them to motivate others or to show them the way? Because I’m telling you right now, the people in command and in white shirts are not the ones to lead the way. I’m not going to ask any of them to tell me how to get there when they’ve never been there themselves. The individuals who lead the way are the ones who have been there.

Nobody is capitalizing on this beautiful experience of these human beings that are coming back from the brink. That’s purpose right there. You need purposeful work. When we are sitting at home in bed doing nothing and we have this drive to get up and spread the word and help people, yes, that’s turning pain into purpose. So what’s your twenty? To speak out and say what’s real.

That’s the other thing. How much do we live in fear? All of us live in fear or reprisal from opening our mouths, whether from our supervisors, from friends, from Family for that judgment. I don’t know where the switch happened, Laryssa, but I don’t give a shit about what anybody thinks about me anymore. I don’t fear anything. What is there to fear? I was ready to take my own life. I’ve had my supervisors ignore me. I am transitioning out of a 25-year career. What is there to fear? Everything there was to fear, I actually ended up entering into it and realizing once fear knocked on the door and I opened the door, nobody’s there.

Laryssa

It’s interesting. There’s a couple of threads I want to pull on there. You talk about that switch. I don’t want to ask two questions at once. I think I’m notorious for doing that.

Emily

That’s okay. [chuckles]

Laryssa

One of them, I love that we’re delving into that sense of purpose. I will have some curiosity in a bit to talk about the sense of purpose when it might not be related directly to one’s work. If they aren’t able to return to work, they might find a sense of purpose in other ways. You as a mother, you disclosed, Emily. The other thing that I want to talk about though, that switch. You did say at a certain point in time, you had to accept where you were with your trauma.

Some folks I observe in any circumstance in life, but it can be related to mental health, experience a victim mentality or a victim experience. It sounds like for you, there was a switch that you empowered yourself that you might have switched from that experience of feeling victimized because of what happened to you. Then you have to make that switch to turn that pain into purpose. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Does that relate to you when I talk about having that victim mentality or experience?

Emily

Yes, I think that all of us do at some point. I think it’s also okay to have it. A lot of people will say, “No, don’t be the victim.” We have to honor everything that we’re going through at a particular time, and honoring it is just acknowledging it. For me, I had so much anger, so much rage against my organization because I was like, “You did this to me.” I was, “Where are you? Why aren’t you coming for me? Why aren’t you bringing me back into the fold? Why I’ve been off for this long and nobody has called? Why do you ignore me? Why don’t I exist anymore? Why am I just a number to you?” I was searching so much for them to show up and they weren’t coming. They still haven’t.

What I needed to do was wallow in that pain. It’s okay to wallow for a little bit. You just can’t stay there. I did my wallow and I went, “Okay, they’re not coming. Okay, you are injured because of your work. Okay, there’s all these things. Your brain has changed now. You’re life is changing. Do you want to stay here or do you want to get up and do something about it? It’s like, “I don’t want to stay here because this isn’t serving anybody, particularly my child, who I told you was my why.”

Once I got started to get up and start being who he needed, as I put one foot in front of the other and became that individual that he needed, I started becoming the individual that I actually needed. Then I self-advocated, advocated for myself for my treatment. I advocated for myself for the podcast. I advocated for myself when it came to speaking out about the injury and the stigma that people actually face. What it is, is the knowledge and the education that we’re really normal. That every single one of us who has this injury, we’re actually not the broken ones. We’re not broken. Our brains are acting and reacting biologically correct.

If people knew that, wow, what a game changer. Oh my God, there actually isn’t something wrong with me. I was injured. Therefore my injury is causing this response, which is normal. We wouldn’t call ourselves broken or an idiot if we had a broken knee or ankle or a torn meniscus. When we moved it and it hurt, you would go, oh no, it’s broken. It hurts because I moved it. Therefore I must do what it takes to rest it and heal it. Why don’t we respond the same way to an injury in the brain?

Laryssa

What role did your Family play? You’ve talked about your son a number of times, referenced him, but what role did your Family play, and maybe how are they impacted by the duration of your recovery? It sounds like it was quite a process.

Emily

When it comes to the role that my Family played, I think they would have liked to have played a greater role, particularly my spouse, but I didn’t allow them in. I didn’t know how to. I didn’t know how to let my spouse in or to carry that for me because I was too embarrassed, too ashamed, too in-depth in my suicide ideation. It really took a strain on my marriage and I did not know how to work on myself and my marriage at the same time.

Unfortunately, I am one of those statistical Families where it’s really hard for the spouses. It’s really hard. When it comes to my children and Family and how it affected them, I wasn’t the best mom for a period of time and I was angry where I was absent, meaning I was sleeping or just trying to hide my depression and grief. That is a really hard one to come back from and it’s something that I used to be terribly ashamed of, but to be ashamed does not heal or help anyone. You have to uncover the shame and tell the truth so that we can make repair, improve, and move forward.

The way that my Family then became a part of my healing is that I wasn’t enough to save myself. My spouse wasn’t enough for me to stick around. I was prepared to do that final ending and it was my child that was what was enough. I had already caused so much damage to my Family, and particularly my child, that I did know if I took that final act, the damage that I was doing was going to be irreparable. I had to find a way to get up, get my ass out of bed, and be the person he needed, even when I felt nothing like it.

I felt nothing like it, but there was food on the table, there was him getting off to school, there was hugs at night, and then whenever he would go on the bus, I would crawl back into bed and I would stay there until that bus came back. I did what I needed for a little person because they deserved it, they needed it. It was that child who, as I said, was my anchor who helped pull me out of my griefs and out of the depth of my depression until I was able to stand on my own two feet and want to be that person for myself.

Family plays a large part. It plays a large part. That’s a lot of weight for a little person to carry. That’s a lot of weight for a little person to carry. I can tell you I’m a great mama now. I’m awesome [chuckles] and I actually am enjoying it.

Laryssa

It sounds like you were a great mom then and I wonder if he didn’t carry that weight and I’m so curious to hear once he’s grown and I’m sure you’re very open about, now I’m getting emotional, I’m sure you’re very open about your journey, about your experience, about mental health. You’re no doubt raising a remarkable young man and once he is old enough in retrospective, I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

Emily

He is a part of the healing journey because we think that just PTSD or occupational stress injury is just our story and in fact, no, it’s the story of everybody around us. It affects every single person.

My injury was my child’s injury. My injury was my spouse’s injury. The healing parts of my story has to be a part of his story too. He has to see his mother heal. He has to see his mother save herself, that she is strong enough to come out and be who he needs. To this day, he’s my biggest fan. He reps my gear and then — I went to pull in and go get gas, it’s a beautiful story and there’s a police cruiser in front of us, it’s evening. He opens the door and I’m like, “Where are you going?” He goes, “I’m going to go talk to the police officer.” I always teach my son that police officers are safe. They’re not angry. They’re not the bad guys. They’re the good guys. Go ahead. I’m like, “Okay.”

Meanwhile, I’m a little nervous because of, I’m just like, I don’t know what he’s going to say, and he walked out and he gets back in the car and I go, “What did you say?” He goes, “I told him that my mom has this podcast, it’s really great, it’s about mental health and you should go listen to it.” I just reached out and squeezed this little human and I was like, “Thank you. Thank God.” God knew what he was doing when he blessed me with that child.

Laryssa

He’s not only your son, he’s your agent. [laughter]

Emily

Yes, he is.

Andrew

Some of the most amazing people I have met are injured due to trauma. I don’t want to call it a superpower because that’s weird, but if it is embraced by organizations, if members who are off were given priority to still be made felt like part of the team, if once they arrived, they were included in their return to work plans appropriately based on what they felt they could do and not — because you mentioned wellness, I offered multiple times to be a wellness officer and it was never, ever monopolized on.

I don’t know if they want us in the building. I don’t know if the attitudes are that, like they are mine that I really believe and truly believe that if people with this injury are nurtured properly, they will be some of the best leaders the organization could ever have the opportunity to be led by because they’re doing it from a lens of understanding, empathy and they’re trauma-informed, and therefore people will get behind them because they know that they will have their best interests in mind.

Back to this purpose, Emily, and you and I, it’s a bit of a small community what we do. I’m glad that we’re able to be loud, but it’s not what every first responder or Veteran is going to take up as their purpose. I’m blessed that this is mine, but I also have so many other friends that do so many other things that are purpose that are injured for this. What’s your experience with What’s Your Twenty? and all the different people? Because you interview people with purpose and they are all from different walks of life.

Emily

I’m so glad you brought that up because part of the healing journey for me, the purpose in the beginning wasn’t the podcast. I had no clue I wanted to do a podcast. I had no clue I was going to end up here. What I started with was power tools and building a farm. I went out and basically, purpose starts with creativity and creativity is what starts the brain firing again, that you go, “Oh, I want to do this. Oh, let’s get outside and can’t wait to see what stall I’m going to make,” or, “What can I build tomorrow?” That’s how my journey started was creativity. I know people can’t see very well, but on the back of my wall, there are paintings.

That was another thing of creativity for me, that it allowed me to get up, and I can’t wait to see the finished product of this. With purpose, purpose can be anything that triggers that creativity in you that makes you feel that you’re contributing to something meaningful. Me building stalls on a farm was meaningful. Me painting was meaningful to me because there’s a message in the painting that makes me feel something. I have other members that I know, one of them makes knives. That’s his purpose and they’re gorgeous knives. There’s another individual that’s a friend of mine that he does golfing. There’s another person.

There’s so much that you can do but that’s the thing. It’s not about recreating what another person is doing. It’s about listening to what it is inside of yourself that’s driving creativity. That is the message that you’re supposed to listen to and then build upon to go and find what is the purpose that makes you want to keep getting up every day.

Andrew

How difficult is that though, when you come from, especially those that will be listening to us from organizations that dictate your purpose? I know for me when I came out of it, I still haven’t figured out who Andrew is.

Emily

That’s beautiful because I don’t know if you did the same, but if you ask a first responder or a military member, “Who are you?” The response that you get is, “I’m this rank at this organization.” “I’m Sergeant Gough at the London Police Service or I’m…” — that’s who you are. That’s your identity. That’s all you know and your life is built around that. Your time with your children, your work doesn’t bend to your children. You’d bend your time for your work. You’re like, “No, my kids will have to wait. I got shift. My wife and my dates will have to wait. I’ve got shift. My friends, any creativity will have to wait. I’ve got shift.” That’s your identity.

Of course it’s built around that. You jump, stand, and deliver when they say. That’s the duty. That’s the loyalty to our organization. That’s the character of a first responder. That’s the character of a military member. That’s the character of an alpha class individual. We jump when we’re told because it’s duty and it’s loyalty and it’s what we know.

However, when you go and you switch it and a doctor is sitting there and saying, “What do you like to do?” Deer in headlights. What? I’m sorry. Is there something I’m supposed to be doing other than work? Is there something else other than, no, I couldn’t tell you who I was either, Andrew. I couldn’t tell you in any way other than I was a first responder. Now, and yes, I am a mother and I can say that, but who am I intrinsically inside? I can tell you I’m a deeply caring, compassionate person. I wouldn’t have said that to you before because I would have been a little embarrassed to tell you that I care.

Laryssa

I was going to say, I think it takes some courage to ask yourself those questions and to explore that. It takes some courage to push yourself outside your comfort zone, whether it’s exploring creativity, exploring your purpose, or reestablishing another facet of your identity. Like I said, it would take some courage to be able to do that.

I have one more question because I think we’re actually coming closer to the end of our time already.

This is not our first conversation. I know we were on a Zoom call the other night and that hour went by just as quickly as this one did. Maybe I would like to ask both of you this question, given the fact that each of you — our theme today is turning pain into purpose, and the experiences of your trauma is what brought you here, I think. I’d like to ask each one of you, maybe I’ll start with you, Andrew, would you change anything?

Andrew

I am a better human being. I am a better man. I am a better husband. I am a better father because of what happened to me, because of the decisions I made to choose my Family over my career. We talked about stigma earlier. It is very real. All those things that people decide not to do out of fear, I’m sorry to say, but they did. They happened to me, all those things that I feared. When Emily says, “What is there left to fear?” Nothing because it already happened.

I’m no longer a member of the Canadian Armed Forces and I’m no longer a member of my police service, and that is against my will. I am glad and I am blessed to have chosen and made the decisions that I did and I do not regret a single thing about it. I have met some amazing people on this journey, and lifelong friends and people that I would do anything for.

Laryssa

Thank you. Emily, same question. Would you change anything?

Emily

First, just quickly, briefly, Andrew, when you said it was against your will, I felt that on such a level. Because when we leave our services, it’s like an amputation. Nobody wants to have a part of you amputated. We wanted to be there to the end. I appreciate you saying that. I feel that so deeply.

Now, as for would I change anything? It’s twofold. The thing Andrew had said that the most amazing connections have been made because of this. The other thing is that because my injury reached its peak and reared its head, I was able to get well. If it hadn’t, I would have stayed a very angry, robotic, cold individual. That’s no way to live. That’s no way to live your life, being angry with yourself and being angry with the world. However, if I could have changed something, I think I would have preferred my injury reared its head a lot sooner. [chuckles]

The reason being is that it took a lot of my life from me. It took a lot of years from me and who I didn’t get to be. The recovery time, it does take a long time, but it is worth it. I had to, I’m still grieving the loss of that person and those events and those things. The only thing that I would change is if somehow it could have come sooner, but now everything, I have gratitude to wake up and say, “Thank you for giving this to me, for letting this happen.” Because things don’t happen to us, Laryssa. They happen for us. It’s up to us to see how is this happening for me?

My injury is happening for me because clearly I need to heal and become a better person. Like Andrew said, I’m a better mother. I’m a better human being. I’m kinder. I care. I open doors. I talk to people. I had such a misanthropy and a hate for humans because all I ever heard was the worst in them every day at my work. Now I actually genuinely care. I genuinely care to the nth of my being. I think that’s a beautiful thing to have because we need more people like that.

Laryssa

Incredible. Thank you both. What I didn’t hear either one of you say is “I wish I was never injured.” Just to thank you both. Emily, thank you so much for joining the podcast today and for your insights and sharing part of your journey with us. Andrew, thank you so much again for being willing. You step up to help us out all the time. When I approached you to ask at a pretty short notice, actually, if you would be co-host for Mind Beyond the Mission to give us a Veteran perspective, you did not hesitate at all and stepped up. We just so appreciate that and love your insights and perspectives that you have to give.

Andrew

I believe in everything that Atlas is doing. The Family side of the Veteran life is often forgotten. It is time to make Families heard. You guys are doing that. I will be here all day, every day, all the time for you guys.

Emily

Thank you, Laryssa. I love our conversations. It’s beautiful to have one more person who’s in my camp.

Laryssa

Thank you so much.

[music]

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts. You’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If you know someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you, the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at @atlasveteransca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message or leave a review on this episode and let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.