Episode 35 – ‘Who am I if not a soldier?’ Exploring creativity, identity and healing after service with Ryan Hawkyard

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 35 — ‘WHO AM I IF NOT A SOLDIER?’ EXPLORING CREATIVITY, IDENTITY AND HEALING AFTER SERVICE WITH RYAN HAWKYARD

Brian McKenna

You found our podcast. We are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families, and specifically mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals. We’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa Lamrock

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families.

Laryssa

Here we are again for another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission. We’re completely virtual this time, Brian. I think last time you and I were able to sit down in a studio in Ottawa, but here we are again virtually. We are joined by another guest. I’m pretty excited about our conversation topic today.

Brian

Yes. It’s interesting. If I look back 25-some-odd years ago in my social circle, I was surrounded by infantrymen, surrounded by people going through courses, corporals everywhere as we were on our junior non-commissioned officer (JNCO) course. I look around now, and I’m surrounded by people that are on healing journeys. I’m surrounded by painters, songwriters, artists, but it’s the same people. That’s actually one of the things we’re here to talk about today, is how did this group of people that were joining for everything that was in the brochure, they wanted to rappel, they wanted to kick doors, they wanted to serve queen and country at the time, well, now they’re on some pretty different endeavors. We’re going to get onto that.

Laryssa:

I’m pleased to introduce Ryan Hawkyard. He served 20 years in the Canadian Armed Forces and completed three tours in Afghanistan. During that time, Ryan was diagnosed with posttraumatic stress disorder and was encouraged to try acting as a therapeutic outlet. After his service, Ryan introduced improv-based workshops to soldiers in the arts, using creativity and performance to help Veterans process trauma, build trust, and foster healing.

Ryan brings firsthand military experience, of course, as a Veteran, to our conversation today, and also a passion for the arts, using storytelling, performance to guide fellow Veterans on their recovery and reintegration journey, which I find fascinating. Ryan, I first met you a few years ago already. We were surprised at how many years have passed in an event. It was something that was very moving for me and for my husband, who joined me, who’s a Veteran, to see Veterans expressing themselves through different artistic means. There were skits. There was poetry. There was photography. What brought you there?

Ryan Hawkyard

Growing up, I didn’t really have any interest in any artistic endeavors. My thing was get out of high school as quickly as possible, join the army. I did that. Then when I was dealing with the fallout from my diagnosis, I was under the care of my mental health team for quite a while. I still am. At one point, my doctor had suggested to me, “you might want to try something out of your comfort zone because everything you’re doing is very military-like in practice.” That’s where I fell into, “Okay. Well, I’m just going to try something that I know nothing about.” I signed up for an improv class. That’s really where I got started.

The idea of having — that there’s no failure was such a foreign concept to me. You show up with a bunch of people, and you just — on the outside looking in, it’s just like, “Oh, they’re just playing games and horsing around.” There is an element to that element of play and being childlike in your approach to things, but also just being able to let go and not worried about any kind of judgment on you for what you’re going to say or what you’re going to do. I found it was very supportive.

From there, I got into more traditional acting classes. I started taking some here in Toronto with The Second City, and I really liked it. I thought, “Hey, this is something to go along with what I’m doing on the healing side.” This is something that’s been very helpful to me. My wife had said to me, “Hey, this seems to be working for you. You should keep it up.” I started looking out and seeing what was around available to Vets in the greater Toronto area (GTA) specifically. There was nothing catered towards performing arts. There was Guitars for Vets, that was a program that was running for a while. I found a bunch in the United States, of course, and in the UK.

At the same time, I had met some people from an organization called the Roland Gossage Foundation. They’ve brought over a play from the UK called Soldier On, which is pretty meta. It’s a play about a group of Veterans getting together to put on a play about PTSD. Watching it, I was like, “Oh, man. This is exactly what I go through.” I got to actually see myself in a lot of the characters. I went and approached them and we started getting to talking. They were also looking at establishing some kind of creative arts program.

We joined forces. This is just before the pandemic started. We put together a grant through Veterans Affairs Canada. It got approved. Then we had three years of a creative arts project that we were running. We were in Toronto and also in Kingston. Pretty much what we were doing was we started with improv theater specifically. Then we put on our own professional production of a new play that was based on the experiences of Canadians in Afghanistan. It was called Tunnel at the End of the Light. From there, we started to get more into what’s known as device theater.

Brian

I’m hearing you speak, and I’m envisioning someone walking on a stage towards a microphone, and I’m feeling vulnerable. I remember if I compare it to the feeling of vulnerability, which is not one that I like, it’s coming home. Before, I used to walk out the door or walk out of my vehicle in an army sense. It was always check surroundings and put on a whole bunch of gear. Tac vest is on, on top of ballistic protection and all these things.

I remember coming home and not having anything to put on and feeling like, “Where’s my stuff? Where’s my protective turtle shell that I’m used to walking around in?” I’m trying to figure out, is that the same kind of vulnerability when you would say to walk towards a microphone, or in the improv, you suddenly realize you’re on and you don’t know what words are about to come out of your mouth 10 seconds from now?

Ryan

To get up in front of a group of strangers and be given a scenario, and you just have to be okay with just letting go and doing whatever comes into your head, that does seem a little out of the wheelhouse. I would also say that 90% of the time when I was in uniform and I was put into these roles, as a Master Corporal, I would get thrown in front of a bunch of officers, especially overseas when I was running an intelligence cell and said, “Hey, listen, you’ve got to brief these guys on the battle space.”

I just have what I have there, so I really have to come off the top of my head. Those little things that I never really thought about really helped in that realm. I was able to adapt pretty quickly to being able to just think on my feet and being fun. You teach on a course and if you taught on a course, and you’re just listing off laundry lists all day long and trying to knock this information into truth. I would always try to make it a little more engaging. I would try and find the humor in things because nobody likes an instructor who just gets up there and reads. It lends itself to it.

Brian

Right, but when they told you in the army, “Improvise, adapt, and overcome,” I don’t think they meant go to the improv.

Ryan

No, not at all. [laughs] Not at all.

Laryssa

“Here’s a prop. Do something with it.”

Ryan

Yes.

Laryssa

Ryan, I’m curious to know, okay, that sounds like some self-care and socialization. I can identify those types of things with what you did with theatre and such, but across all the arts, what would you describe the direct line is, or is there a direct line to your recovery? Were there things that translated from that experience into your recovery process?

Ryan

I think for myself, one thing that really stood out for it was, one, I need to get out of my comfort zone. I was very solid in being around military people, talking the lingo, going to military-based things, reading military books, all this stuff. I just kept doing the same thing over and over again. I was stuck in this mindset, and especially when I started to look at, “Well, my career is about to end. What’s going to happen next?” “How do I reflect back on that and be like, ‘Okay. Well, it wasn’t just service, it was my life.'”

Doing things that were creative helped me understand why more so and who I was outside of just being a soldier. Those things that I joined up for changed a lot over the time. Towards the end of my career, I found myself at a crossroads where I didn’t really know what I was doing anymore. Being able to reflect on it and use things to tell that story in a creative manner was extremely beneficial to me because then I could just be like, well, I might not be able to convey it. I could sit here for three hours and tell you why I joined, but why don’t I try and sum it up in a very small paragraph and see if I can get that across to you.

Brian

I wonder, in your circumstance here, Ryan, even when you go on vacation, for example, some people ask you where you’re going, others will ask what you’re coming from, or what are you running away from. Is there some emotion or uncomfortable feeling that you were trying to part ways with? What was the problem that you were trying to solve?

Ryan

The biggest one for me was who was I. I joined the army when I was 18 years old. My entire life was being a soldier. At 18 years old, that was really cool. In my 40’s, I was like, “Well, I still got a lot of life left to live.” [chuckles] How am I going to take those experiences and help transform myself to the next step? I find that the things that we deal with in uniform are so foreign to most people on a base-level concept, like if you’re talking about what it’s like to serve in an overseas context in a combat zone, but the small things that you can take from that and you can share with other people help create that humanity, that bridge between you.

Yes. People don’t know what it’s like to be away from your spouse for six months and be under the constant threat of extreme violence, but they don’t know what it’s like to be lonely, or they know what it’s like to be separated from people. You can give them that element where they can take that in, and they can feel their own loneliness in that. Then maybe they have a little bit more empathy when they’re coming to talk about what it is that was weighing on you being in that situation.

Laryssa

That’s bringing to mind a few things for me. I think through my understanding of the arts is that they’re interpretive and they can be subjective. I think there’s a beauty in that. I’m going to share, I guess, just a little bit of an experience that I had that I found helpful in my own journey. When I was doing peer support, we had an activity night, and we brought these little canvases from the dollar store and some paints and had a clinician walk us through, as Family members supporting a Veteran with PTSD, for us to paint a representation of one of the toughest parts of our journey supporting someone with PTSD.

We sat together, and we were talking and visiting, and there was this connection happening with people organically as we were each painting our picture. Then we were able to share, if we wanted to, the representation. The next part of the exercise was then for us, over top of that, to paint what we envisioned as our safe space. For me, what I noticed was that part of the difficult part of my journey became the painting, part of the painting of my safe space. They were incorporated. I didn’t cover it 100%. Parts of that were still there, and that was very symbolic to me.

As we were each sharing, I would look at one of my peers’ paintings and pull something different out of it. It might have represented one thing to them, but that’s where I’m going with that. I think art can be a way for us to safely express what’s really hard to put into words. I think it also is a connection amongst people because they might pull part of their story out of that.

I’m curious what you’ve seen working with a number of Veterans across the programs and initiatives that you’ve led. Tell me a little bit about what you’ve observed with them, maybe when they first came to you and when they’re in those group activities, to maybe the end of a project or something.

Ryan

I found that it really brings people together. Having that ability to share and be heard, not so much I want to be like, “not be judged,” but at least you don’t have to worry about who’s hearing it at first, because the space is very contained with other Vets and other Family members, so people understand that already. You’re not going out on a limb with a group of civilians, for lack of a better term.

When I did that, that was very… it took me a while before I could even tell people in the room I was in the military, but at least with Soldiers in the Arts, when we were running our workshops, it was like you already knew everybody there. It already took that barrier away to being a little more open with what you were going through or what you were feeling about a certain topic.

Brian

As you were speaking about this, one thing that comes up for me is that if you look in the American system, the Veterans Affairs (VA) system, it’s a hospital system. It’s a full healthcare system. Ours isn’t. If you look at the Australian system, it has similarities and differences from ours. You can go worldwide and find 100+ different Veteran circumstances in terms of healthcare, in terms of laws and policy, and benefits. I have never run into a soldier yet that has a perfect answer to purpose, meaning and identity when they get out of the military. It is the tie that binds. It’s the struggle that binds. It is probably the biggest thing that I went searching for.

Yes. I look at it as the mirror test. It’s also for me — my kids used to introduce me to other people. Then, when someone would ask questions like, “Oh, Dad’s in the army. That’s why he’s the way he is.” When you’re not in the army anymore, why are you? Why? Why are you different? Why are you so easy to startle? That became even harder for them to explain, like, “Who is Dad?”

I struggled a lot with looking in the mirror. It wasn’t that I couldn’t find any purpose. It was that I was looking in the rearview mirror. I was looking at that the best chapter of my life is behind me and really struggling to figure out, now I know what looking forward looks like, but is it worth it? How do I get there? How do I find a new meaning that doesn’t dishonour that past but is worth doing?

Ryan

Yes, totally. One thing I always go back to is the movie The Hurt Locker, which I’m not… it’s a movie, whatever. The one scene in that movie that really summed it up for me was when he’s in the grocery store. He’s looking at the cereal. You can see it in his face. He’s just like, “What am I doing?” I find myself all the time asking that question. I’ve worked a bunch of different jobs since I’ve gotten out, just small things here and there, part-time. It’s hard to find something where I’m just like, “This is it. This is where I’m going to put all my effort into.”

I think we all struggle with that. I was out in New Brunswick for a retirement party back in November and saw an old Section Commander of mine. He’d been in the airborne. He’d been 35 years in the military, retired, and where he’s living now, he’s saying the same thing. He’s like, “I have no idea what I’m supposed to do next. I’ve got this whole life behind me, but there’s so many years to go still.” I think that really isolates a lot of us.

Again, when I come back to it, it’s like the only thing that I can say for myself that’s been any benefit is just being able to find creative ways to… I don’t want to say “process,” but bring the things that I’ve been holding onto out and just be like, “Well, this… even if I’m not going to show it to anybody, at least it’s out there.” It’s like if you journal every day. Every day, you just write out whatever the first thing’s coming in your head. You’re not holding that in. You’re getting it out there. If purpose is ever going to come back, I have no idea, but I can at least give myself little benchmarks of things I would like to try and at least try to express myself in ways that are going to help with that.

Brian

There’s so many unique ways out there. One that’s really blown my mind is watching a program, it’s been national, but started out in BC of axe-making. I never thought about metalwork from an art perspective, but here they are, 10 Vets gathered around a craftsman teaching them like, “This is how we’re going to forge. This is how we make metal bend and move, and you can make art out of it.”

As I’m watching this happen, for me, it opened my eyes to there’s probably things out there other than writing songs. Nothing wrong with writing songs. There’s things out there other than painting. What have you seen that’s interested you and is maybe a newer form of art that not everyone’s considering these days?

Ryan

Oh, wow. [chuckles] I’m not too tech savvy, but the stuff with AI now is pretty wild, to see what you can make just with that. You don’t have to really have any physical talent. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have any physical talent, but to draw these ideas and create this image just by typing some prompts into the computer and how to refine that, I think that’s something that’s making some pretty controversial but some interesting things are coming from that as well. That’s one that I really am like, “Oh, wow. I wonder where that’s going to go.”

Laryssa

It’s interesting, and I would love to hear from you what words of encouragement or recommendations you might have for Veterans listening or Family members that might want to know where to get started. I remember Steve, after he retired, was looking for something to challenge him, occupy him, stimulate him, things like that. He decided to go into metal forging.

Initially, his response or his rationale to me was like, “I’m going to go out there, and I’m just going to smash the shit out of this metal, and that’ll be therapeutic.” I remember him coming in at some point with this gnarled, twisted piece of metal. He’s like, “You know, that approach isn’t working.” I looked at him, and I said, “Oh, really?” There was something in that for both of us that we could draw from that. What he’s finding is that maybe with a lot of arts is you have to be present in the moment. He said, “You really have to pay attention to the colour of the metal and the angle that you’re hitting it with and what you want to manipulate it, so you have to be very present. You have to be very grounded.”

That’s been the therapeutic piece for him as well as coming out with something, “Hey, look. I produced this.” I think just being in the moment and tapping into how you’re compelled to go in a direction with a song or a colour or whatever, I would imagine would be kind of a peaceful experience, maybe sometimes.

Ryan

Certainly cathartic just to be able to talk about even mindful walking. That was one thing my doctor always talked to me about was when you go for a walk, just be mindful of all the things you’re involved in. Being mindful really gives you that, like a great place to start from because you’re really concentrating rather than looking at the end goal.

I think a lot of times, for myself in the military, when I was doing something, it was always with the end goal, like, “I’m going to do this course because I want that qualification.” I never really took the time to sit with that and understand why I wanted to do it. Maybe that was my own ego that got in the way of me on more than one occasion from it. Yes. I really like that example because again, it’s like you can’t just sit there and hit it and think you’re going to come up with something great. You really got to immerse yourself in it.

Brian

That’s interesting is we’re always working for a goal, and “mission-driven” is a good term. There’s nothing wrong with being driven by a mission. A lot of these other things, they’re process-driven. It’s the getting there that’s the value. I think about what did I have to do to set myself up for success in the military. If you had to be somewhere at seven, well, undoubtedly, the fastest guy in the platoon is going to run everyone into the ground. That’s what the morning looks like, but how do you set yourself up for success?

Probably some decent sleep, get up, shave, make sure your problems are going to go away so you’re showing up with the right gear. Whatever training you’re supposed to do that day probably has some special thing you’ve got to bring. These are the ways you set yourself up for success. How do you set yourself up to be creative? If you know you’re going to go do something today from the art perspective that starts at 8 in the morning, what’s the before 8 that gets you ready to do your best?

Ryan

For myself, really, I really have to become mindful of what I’m doing. If I go into an audition or if I go into anything like that, and I’ve just been like, “I learned the words. I’m ready to go.” It doesn’t work like that. I really have to take that time to center myself and come from that place of, like, “I am in the character,” if that makes sense. I’m not just reading these lines so someone will see me as that. I have to understand the context of it, and I have to be present in that context in order for it to even come out as truth. Right?

We’ve watched enough stuff. You watch people and their performances, especially when it comes to movies, and you’re like, “Yeah, that seems kind of flat,” or whatever you can critique at the end of the day, but there’s a real difference in someone who is like, “I’m taking this role on, and my end goal is to be this person, is to be in this.” I have to come from that, from a place of being prepared, first of all, but also being centered in myself before I can get that out there.

Even before we go on stage, or if I’m going to be on camera, I have to sit there, take a few deep breaths, center myself, and just be in the moment before I can get that out. If I’m just there, I’m like, “Oh, now it’s time to take the laundry list,” it never works. It never comes off as real. It always comes off as super rehearsed, and it doesn’t help me in trying to achieve my goal.

Brian

If you look back, though, when Master Corporal Hawkyard was doing his business, when he’s doing in-briefing to some officers he doesn’t know, was any of that an act?

Ryan

[laughs] I would say there was always an element of the whole world’s a stage. You’ve got to sell it. You’ve got to be that person. You’ve got to take that role on. The drama teacher told me years ago, “We’re all actors in some way, shape, or form. You’re taking on that role.” Now I’m going to be the interim NCO, okay, well, I’m going to be the interim NCO. I know nothing about intelligence briefings, but I do know what it’s like to convey information properly, so I’m going to break on that.

There was an element of, yes, this is who I am. I’ve got to sell you the plan. When I got promoted to Sergeant, and I’m in front of troops, and they got to look at me like, “Who’s this crazy old guy yelling things at me?” Well, I had to make them believe that I had that experience. They had to understand that. How else do you do that? Just the name alone doesn’t help. We all knew NCMs that had all these nice badges on them, but they were the best at their job. It didn’t mean you were amazing because you had all the courses. You know what I’m saying? There’s an element of acting, and there’s also an element of, “If I’m prepared, that acting or taking that role on is going to come across, and people are going to know who I am.”

Brian

Yes. I think back to how many times was I leading a patrol or an element of something trying to portray confidence that I didn’t have, trying to not be geographically embarrassed in front of people, which really means lost. I’ve thought about that a number of times. Also, when I met you before, when we were having a chat, it’s like, there is some element of some performative aspect of assuming a new role.

The second someone says, “Hey, you know what, you’re the section commander now.” You might have been filling that role, acting, as we literally call it, acting Master Corporal, acting Sergeant. All of a sudden, now you are, so you’re not acting anymore. You’ve got to be that thing. I wonder if any of that is still present for you in your current work.

Ryan

Oh, absolutely. I acted all the time, man. I was always being put into some role that I wasn’t qualified for, or somebody else wasn’t there. I just seemed to be the guy. Maybe because that I could just feign confidence very well, and that’s why [chuckles] people took me on in those things, set that aside as a joke, but you’re correct. You show up in an organization, people don’t know who you are, and you’re given this title. Well, you have to figure out what it means to convey that. You really have to understand that. It’s not just saying words. It’s like, “What about my actions is going to get these people to believe that I know what I’m doing?”

Laryssa

Okay. I’m going for a really deep question here for both of you guys. We’re talking about taking on that persona or acting in a role, and what comes to mind for me is “Fake it ’till you make it.” Was there or is there a component for each one of you in your recovery with PTSD, or trying to — I know for Steve, when he transitioned out of the military, he thought he had to act like a civilian, so he was trying to fake it ’till he made it, or even with his OSI, trying to get out of bed every day, and he maybe particularly was having a hard time struggling, but he would have to “put it on” kind of thing and act through the day or whatever. Is there a component of that at all for either transition or recovery with mental health injury?

Brian

If I had any of that, it was certainly trying to sound like a civilian. I would change my language to try and be less offensive, and in the act of doing that, probably come across even worse. Yeah. Who’s the new me? Yet, let’s be honest, 20 years, formative years of your life from 17 to 37, I knew what was in that mirror. I think there’s going to be an element of that when I’m 77.

I think one thing where there’s a bit of performative, it’s not — sometimes, you don’t know you’re doing it, though. I find a lot of people, including me, when I first got that first breath of air, the first program I went on that showed me a little bit of a path forward, I then felt I was fixed. It’s like, “Oh, this is good. I’ve got it licked now,” because I’ve caught my breath for like an afternoon or something like that. “This worked for me. Therefore, Ryan, you have to do this program.”

That was probably one of my biggest failings is I had tried some things that didn’t work, so then I took the idea, “Well, those don’t work then.” Then I had a couple of other things that worked for me, well, then they work for you, and you’re not trying if you don’t go on this program and get that dog and do this therapy. Yeah, I put myself in this professor role before I really should have.

Laryssa

Ryan, what about you? I’m curious.

Ryan

I’ve been guilty of that myself, where it’s a one-size-fits-all approach to things. One thing I’ve noticed, I’ve been out for five years now, so in that time, it just doesn’t work that way. Everybody responds differently, especially when you come out of the system, because the system’s meant to get a standard across in one way, so everybody’s got to meet that standard.

When I think back on how I interacted with people within the Forces, people learn differently. Something might register with you right away. I was very good at just memorizing stuff and regurgitating it, so I think that was very beneficial for me in that environment. Then, coming out and knowing, for a bit, I worked with homeless Vets, and then being like — I was in school for social work. Again, now I’m learning models of approach to people with very different backgrounds to mine, sometimes with traumas that I don’t even understand.

I couldn’t call on that stuff that I used before because it just wouldn’t work. I really would have to, like you say, fake it ’till I made it, because you had to find what would work with these people. I think in anything for Vets, when you come out of there, as we’ve talked about before, is finding that purpose is very difficult. It’s going to come across in all kinds of different ways to people. You might find it in writing or whatever it is. There’s no one “yes” answer to any of this stuff.

Brian

What’s therapeutic about playing a part that isn’t real?

Ryan

You have to find your idea of who that character is. You don’t just pick up a script, read it, memorize it, and say the lines. That’s what I do is I build this whole world for myself to understand who they are, why they act the way they do, why they are in the situation that they’re in, because you can be called upon to be a villain, and meanwhile, you don’t have any parallels to who this individual is. You have to find that humanity in it because you’re there to tell the story.

You really have to fake being that person in order to get that point across. You can’t fake being that person if you can’t find one element of commonality where you can say, “Well, I know myself in that situation.” We’re all the villain at some point. We all make decisions that are beneficial to ourselves but will deny somebody else the truth. You might not think of yourself as the villain.

When I think of being in Afghanistan, I’m like, “Oh, well, I was there for pretenses that were morally just,” and the situations that I were in were at times a direct counter to that, where I would be involved with an individual, and this individual is doing something that I could judge them and say it was against what we were doing there. I’m not them. I’m not their culture. I don’t understand that.

I am pushing my values on them, which is not real. You know what I mean? That’s going against myself. If someone was to come into my backyard and tell me that I had to change everything in the way that I lived because it was wrong, I don’t know how I would react. I could find that commonality between myself and the people that I considered enemies at one point. Again, it’s like being able to find that point of humanity, even though I’m not that person and I’m faking who they are, it helps me find the character, find the role, and purvey that out to somebody or to an audience and tell the story.

Brian

What I’m trying to get at, for my own understanding, is why are so many of these people finding success in the arts in terms of, well, quite frankly, they’re doing well. Also, they’re doing well at it. They’re getting healthier through it. It’s at least what it seems to me. I’m wondering. Is this something we grow into? Are we just older? Did we learn it, or do you think that creativity was always there? I’m just thinking, the average, you think about your 21-year-old average person in the platoon, 34 guys about to go into a gas hut. I’m not thinking that I’m standing beside the next poet.

Ryan

It’s in humans to create. We’re the only species that will pay money to watch other versions of us do something that we already know we do. I’m going to watch a movie about two couples fighting. Well, I know what that is. Why am I paying money for this? Because I like watching it. I think that we all have it in us to create in some way. The creative things that I saw from troops that served under me in certain scenarios, where I’m just like, “Where did you come up with that? What in your brain was able to see through those lines and make something like that?”

We are creative at heart. I think the military, because the big point of it is to conform in some ways, you conform to be a member of this. You’re working together as a team for a common goal. We lose that. Then, when we come out of it, you’re playing with all kinds of thoughts. You’re trying to say, “Hey, listen, what did I just go through? How do I make sense of it? What are things that I’ve seen there that I would like to bring back into light?” I think that’s one of the things that we forget as military members, is we are human first. We have that ability to create, and we look at that ability to create in others, and we take that in. It’s part of the human condition.

Laryssa

You’re talking about meaning-making. When we chatted before, you brought something up that was fascinating. I think, particularly, there were authors. A lot of authors of very famous works were actually Veterans, potentially trying to make a meaning. Can you talk about that again a little bit?

Ryan

Yes, totally. I use Tolkien. Everybody loves The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit. That guy was in the trenches in the First World War. Those stories of friendship, he drew on those in order to write those books. Where are you going to get that kind of friendship from? I don’t know in ways of outside of the army [chuckles] where you’re going to find that. Maybe firefighters in some ways, because you’re putting your life on the line together in such a way?

Having that experience from that, he created this entire world that is still today there. The ancient Greek plays, we talked about this as well. There’s a book called The Theater of War for people that are interested in picking something up. This gentleman, Brian O’Doherty, he’s talking about how the Greek classics were written by Vets and they were performed. The Greek chorus, you couldn’t be in the Greek chorus unless you were a member of society. How do you become a member as a citizen? You serve in the military. That’s always been there, at least in terms of us Westerners. It’s a foundational element of our literature and our art.

Brian

If you go through a place like, say, Parliament or even US Congress, have a look at what most of the paintings are, and they’re of conflict. I look back, having not served in Vietnam, obviously, where is the biggest storytelling of the Vietnam experience? Rock music. There was pro-war music, there was anti-war music, there was distrust in government music.

For the Canadian context, the best thing I could call of an artifact of the First World War is a poem. You think of that, Flanders Fields. Did John McCrae really intend on writing this timeless piece that we’d be constantly referring to and repeating for a century? Maybe that was what he was coming up with, or maybe he’s just writing what he thought and saw at that time. It was a recording. He was putting data on paper to a degree. What do you think might be a lasting art piece out of the conflicts we were in?

Ryan

I don’t know. [laughs]

Brian

You’ve mentioned some plays, and there’s some other ones, too, like Contact!Unload, one that I know of, came from out west. These gents wound up performing this to royalty in the UK and whatnot. I’ve noticed a number of plays and smaller 8-10 minute ones that have come out of our conflicts.

Ryan

Yes. I would like to see that. I would like to see our generation — we’re just starting to phase out now. In the next five to 10 years, there’s going to be no more of us left in the Forces, so maybe we’ll start to see some of that more. I know there’s a lot of people on the talking circuits who are getting out there. We’re telling these real-life stories and soundbites across social media. That’s just how the world that we live in now.

I hope to see some more. I would love to see something that’s based off our experiences. I watched Hyena Road, and it doesn’t hit the same way. You know what I’m saying? I would hope that Canadians would find an interest in these stories in a way where they’re supported, and they’re… one failing that we had was, even though we did a two-week run of our play here in Toronto, it didn’t get the legs that we were hoping it would. The theatre community here didn’t pick up on it the same way.

Everyone that came to see it loved it. The things that people that came up to us after and talked about, we had one gentleman who was an interpreter, an Afghan interpreter that was there. He was in tears at the end of it. We had all kinds of Vets come through and see it. We would like to put it on again, but that’s time for another conversation. These other plays, this is a great way to get it out there. It’s a great way for people to convey and try and share in what it means to have served or to be involved in it.

There’s a famous Canadian play called This is War written by a Canadian playwright, but she’s not a Vet. She did a lot of work with Vets, and it does have an element of all of that. You can tell that she did her homework with it. My thing with it always is, I can watch all these war movies, and the ones that always stick out to me, like Oliver Stone’s. You watch Platoon, and you know that guy, that came from lived reality. That’s not just a story. That’s his war that he brought forward, the dichotomy between the two Section Commanders kind of thing. Something you just can’t convey unless you’ve been there.

Brian

Back in the day, when you were serving, if someone introduced you, it would be this rank, this name, qualified in this, going to teach you X. What’s the elevator pitch on Ryan now? If someone meets you and says, “Tell me about yourself.” How do you describe yourself to them today? Who are you?

Ryan

The first I always lead with “I’m a Vet.” “I’m Ryan, I’m a Veteran. I served 20 years in the military. I saw action in Afghanistan, and I’ve moved on from that. Now I’m an actor, I’m a photographer, I’m a storyteller. I’m a Canadian.” That’s what I think, that I would like to get that across as best as I can.

Laryssa

Ryan, I’m curious if there’s somebody listening who this is piquing interest, what words of encouragement? How does somebody get started if they want to tap into that creative piece?

Ryan

Just start. Just pick something. If you’ve always wanted to paint, just go out there. It’s not going to be amazing at first, or maybe it is. I don’t know. You have to put the time in order to really create your own voice and make your own… I want to say make your own art. There’s a great book called The Artist’s Way. It’s been around forever. I used it myself, and it just gives some really great insights into how to fine-tune that creative muscle because if you haven’t used it for a long time, it might be dusty. You have to find ways to make it better yourself.

My parting advice to anybody is just pick something, get involved, get out there, and don’t feel that your work isn’t good enough because that’s not real. You know what I mean? Art is, like you said earlier, it’s subjective. It’s your expression, and no one can take away your expression from you.

Brian

Is there some element to this, though, Ryan? If someone wants to get started, if you want to do art, like go to art, be around art, go check out a recording artist that you’ve never heard of, something that’s local. Is that what you mean by “start?”

Ryan

Yes. Exactly. Get out there. See what other people are doing. Find things that inspire you, things that you’re interested in. It could be like — you could be into jewelry making or whatever it is, and you see the beauty in that and you want to try it. Well, try it. Don’t just say, “I wish I could do that,” or “I wish I could be creative,” because I used to say that myself until I started doing stuff and being like, “Oh, I actually like this, and there’s actually a platform here I can work with.”

I’ve had a few Vets I’ve spoken to being like, “Well, I’m not an artist.” I’d be like, “Well, neither am I. I’m just a guy [chuckles] that wants to get out there and experience as much life as I can.” That’s how I look at it. You can find art in anything. You can find it in cooking. You can find it in lawn care, whatever it is. You just immerse yourself in something and give yourself the space to fail and try.

Brian

Speaking of that, what are you on now and what’s your next piece?

Ryan

Oh, what am I on right now? I’ve taken a bit of a step back from auditioning for the last few months because I’ve been helping a Family business out with my wife. I’m hoping to get back into getting back to auditions this year. I’m always trying to write something. I’m just trying to get something together. I would like to have my own work on stage at some point, to be in more movies, I would love to be just out there and just doing stuff.

Brian

I think as we wrap up, one thing I’d like, obviously our community is largely the Veteran and Family community. For a person still in uniform, without doing something that would get them fired, what kind of art do you think they could dabble in while they’re still serving to scratch this niche?

Ryan

As long as it didn’t go against the code of service discipline, whatever it is, man. [chuckles] You know what I mean? Again, you can try anything. I was still in when I started doing my acting lessons. Just remember that you’re still a representative of the Forces, and there’s rules that come with that. As long as you’re not in violation of that, just get out there and get creative.

Laryssa

Ryan, it was such a pleasure getting to know you a little bit better. I hope we stay in contact. I’m keeping my eyes open for your name up in lights on theatre marquis. Yeah, just thank you so much for having this conversation with us.

Ryan

Thank you very much, guys. It was great.

Brian

Yes, Ryan, I really appreciate it. I think it’s such a good message because there’s health in that. I think of, you are who you are when you join. You’re looking for what’s in that brochure, and good if you find it. I just want those people to know, 47 years old down the road, you might have other interests, and those interests might be your best medicine. Thank you, Ryan, for joining us on another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Ryan

Thanks, guys.

Laryssa

I’m just going to give another shout-out to Courtney Wright, our internal producer at Atlas, and for Pop Up Podcasting, who always makes us sound great. If you’re listening to this podcast, please rate the podcast, leave a comment. We want to get this out to Veterans and Families so that they can learn about different topics and hear from great guests like Ryan Hawkyard. Thanks, folks.

[music]

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If you know someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you, the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at @atlasveteransca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message, or leave a review on this episode, and let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.