Episode 6 – Overcoming loneliness

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 6: OVERCOMING LONELINESS

Laryssa

When I picture the experience of serving in the military, one of the things I envision is social connectedness. I think of soldiers marching in unison, living in close quarters, watching each other’s six. I’ve heard terms used like brotherhood and sisterhood, esprit de corps and camaraderie. I wonder why it is that there’s a number of recent studies that show that many Veterans are experiencing loneliness. Veterans have a unique experience of loneliness, and are Veteran Families struggling with the experience as well?

Brian

I think in the question of loneliness, what are we selling? When we tell somebody that the military is going to be an interesting place for them, we might be selling repelling out of helicopters or sailing or flying aircraft, but at the end of the day, we’re selling the team. We’re selling the idea that you are now going to get to join that, as long as you walk through this bit of a crucible we’ve got for you called basic training and then trade training and so on. We’re selling that you’re going to be part of this. Even think of when an exercise ends, Family members are sitting there expecting, he’s back from the field, he’ll be coming home. Probably not.

They’ll be coming home, but they’re going to go to the mess first. That’s baked in as well. It’s all part of it. I think about Remembrance Day, which we just went through. I don’t think it’s Remembrance Day if I’m suffering on my own. It’s Remembrance Day because I gather around with the people that are still there, remembering the teammates that are no longer there. It’s that collective that is the product. Look at a regiment, people really looking towards a set of colors which are cloth hanging on metal, but it represents the team, and the team that was there before you showed up. That’s the product. That’s what people buy into. Shooting even gets boring over time, but being part of that team never bores you and that’s what we’re missing.

Laryssa

I was wondering, if there’s such a sense of connection in the military, why do Veterans then seek out solitude? I’ve observed that so often is that once someone is released from the military, they head for the hills and they seek out that isolation. When that connection with others was what drew you and sounds like kept you in the military, why then once the uniform is hung up does there seem to be more isolation?

Brian

You’re right. We talk sometimes about making sure we don’t just come up with the Vancouver plan, but that doesn’t mean we come up with the Surrey or the Prince Rupert plan. What’s the plan for the guy at the end of the logging road that actually has disconnected himself from services, never mind people? What are they getting away from? Generally speaking, a lot of them are trying to get away from pressure, from noise, from sound, but also people can help you. When you’re surrounded by 15, 20 coworkers and you think none of them have a clue who you are, then those people bring pressure. They don’t bring help.

My sense of it is a lot of people, they’re not trying to get away from the team. They’re trying to get away from the noise and the pressure. When they succeed at that, then they find themselves isolated at the end of the logging road, and then how do I reach that guy? When we come up with the best idea, do you or do you not want to do EMDR? The answer to that is, can you get to EMDR? These are all results of isolation, which leads to loneliness, is just the basics. Separation from the things that can make you healthier.

Laryssa

I want to ask you: isolation and loneliness are not necessarily the same thing. You can be around a bunch of people and still feel lonely. It’s actually a conversation I had with my spouse as we were preparing for this podcast, about his experience of loneliness. What he described to me was when he was in the military, of course, he experienced that camaraderie, that brotherhood, that esprit de corps, all those things that I had mentioned that he hasn’t experienced anywhere else. I don’t understand, and I sometimes actually envy that camaraderie and connection that he had.

He also described that when he was deployed, he was lonely for his family, because there’s a different type of relationship there that he didn’t get from the military. But now that he’s released and a Veteran, he’s around family all the time but he’s still experiencing loneliness because he misses that camaraderie. It’s almost like a no-win situation.

Brian

Part of it, though, is there’s always something to do. That doesn’t mean you don’t find boredom or you can’t find time to play a card game. You certainly can, but there’s something to do, so off is really just a degree of lowering your busyness. If you want to stay busy overseas, you really can. I’m not so sure I know how to do that back here. We stop working when we stop, and it’s not like I keep then fixing the vehicle that I’m going to use tomorrow. I don’t do that. I put down my tools and it’s game over.

If you want to keep yourself occupied while you’re gone, you can. I missed my family while I was gone, but what I actually didn’t want was too much connection. Probably sounds harsh — it doesn’t feel all that good to say it — but if someone’s phoning home twice a day, it’s really hard to get your head back in the game we need it to be in. If you do something like that, say you’re phoning home at 9:00 AM and 5:25 every day, well what happens a day you can’t phone at 5:25? It gets everyone spooled up.

One of our answers to that is, “Well, I’ll disconnect a bit, and I’ll just put these gaps in there and I’ll mix the timings up so people don’t go get used to it.” Well, the next thing you know you’ve built a disconnection strategy. I go back to, why do I like camping? Why do I like going out in the bush? Because then it’s all back on me, and while there’s a little bit of pressure for me to sort my life out out there and whatever goes wrong is my fault, I don’t feel I’m susceptible to someone else’s decisions, and that’s one of the reasons I go to the middle of nowhere sometimes.

I absolutely understand the other guys that go there, too. It makes perfect sense. I look at loneliness, I’m actually really excited that, I’m excited people are on this. We’ve talked before about how do you have brave discussions no one’s having, well who the hell out there is talking about loneliness? Apparently some people are, but it’s a pretty silent conversation these days.

Laryssa

As I mentioned and you and I are being exposed to more studies and more conversations around Veterans and loneliness specifically, I guess I shouldn’t be asking you to speculate, but from your experience, why do Veterans experience loneliness in a different way than other people do?

Brian

Well again, if you look back to the job, the team is what we’re selling. The team is really what you joined, and if you stayed for any length of time you probably bought into that. We can replace a lot of the other stuff you used to do. I’ve seen a lot of people that were aircrew, they retire from the Air Force and then they go get their pilot’s license themself or they carry on recreational flying. You ask that guy, is flying the Cessna, which you like doing, the same as your crew you worked with when you were in the Air Force?

No. Being in the Navy is not sailing, and I don’t camp. And in fact, my soldiers from previous years, if they were to see the way I camp they’d probably make fun of me endlessly. I’m so soft these days. I don’t go anywhere without a working toilet. I’ve canceled trips because we ran out of creamer. I’m completely feeble when it comes to that, but that’s the new me. But I go not to do some outward-bound expression of man versus nature… I go to get away from stuff.

Laryssa

Some of that is the Veteran experience, but how much does posttraumatic stress injury play into Veterans and loneliness?

Brian

That’s where I go back to the isolation versus the loneliness thing. When you’re talking about PTSD and you’re talking about getting PTSD from a discussion that’s probably not all that socially palatable. Let’s be fair, the average Canadian doesn’t want to hear what the world’s like. It’s harsh out there. They don’t want to hear what our involvement in some of those things are. It’s heavier than some people think. I get this sense that even if I brought up in a discussion in a room of 10 people, I get a sense that at least half of them won’t even want to hear what I’m talking about, let alone hear me then go on about how it affects me. A lot of people look at us like our injuries are self-inflicted wounds because, hey, you joined the army after all.

Laryssa

Okay, right.

Brian

And even if they don’t feel that, I can project on them that they do and I’m the guy that walks into the room and feels isolated. They might all be well open and willing to help, but I put myself in that little isolated box.

Laryssa

Part of it is because you don’t feel understood.

Brian

Yes. We’ve talked about this before is that, I want to know that if I’m having a conversation with someone, that it’s either going to make someone’s life better or at least not make theirs worse. The idea that I’m going to start talking about something they can’t help me with, so now I’m ruining their day, and I might be damaging my own because now I’m going through something I didn’t plan on talking about when I got up in the morning… who’s better off from that? That’s the feeling I have. Is it the right one, is it an educated one? No, it’s not, but it’s the one I feel.

Laryssa

It’s interesting because I think Veteran Family members and military Family members, for that matter, can experience their own loneliness. And not dissimilar to that, as a Family member who’s supporting someone with a mental health injury, let’s say you don’t feel understood either, so you’re at the family function and you’re looking at everyone else and you just don’t feel that they get it or understand your experience and so you don’t talk about it which makes you feel more, again, isolated and lonelier in your experience. I remember for me, for the longest time, I didn’t tell anybody what was happening in my home because number one, I didn’t think anyone else was experiencing it and therefore no one else would understand it.

I think Family members can feel that sense of isolation too, and then as we know, withdrawal and isolation can actually be symptoms of PTSD. I remember times that as a family we would want to do outings and my spouse wasn’t up to it, and I had to make a decision whether we would also isolate and withdraw and just stay at home because the Veteran, my spouse, wasn’t feeling up to it, or if we would choose— the rest of the family would go and carry on with the activity. It would make me feel guilty and I’d feel like a sense of separation that I should be home supporting my spouse.

Brian

Yes, it’s weird. I think when we talk about vicarious trauma or intergenerational trauma, for me, it’s a new understanding, but one of the things I think about is if your dad was physically wounded and he has no legs, you’re probably not going on family walks and hiking trips, so what that means is his injury becomes the family’s limitation, or they go on it without them. They continue their activity and now he’s isolated.

There isn’t really an easy way to take that physical injury and still roll the same way the family used to, so even from just looking at it that way, can the injury of the parent become the injury of the kid, and I don’t know how you live that life without getting a little bit isolated.

You brought up family. There was a point in my life where my career was going quite decent, and my family situation was not. You go to work and guys would want to see you, talk to you, “How’s things going, how’s the wife and kids?” “Oh great, great, great.”

Even the fact that I was giving these BS answers — because they were — means I’m not engaging. There’s a loneliness in there too because now my relationships start getting compromised at work as there’s these different gaps of areas we can’t talk about anymore. When I wanted to just shoot the breeze or other terms that sound like that with my buddies, absolutely full engagement, but when it comes to connecting about what else is going on in our lives, like—

Laryssa

Okay, so you just didn’t talk about it.

Brian

No, I’m not doing that. “It’s great. It’s fine. How about the Canucks?” That was the routine, and that’s what I mean when I tell you I could be in a room of other people and be lonely.

Laryssa

Yes, and like I said, I think that’s similar from the family side. I didn’t want to talk to anyone because I didn’t think they’d understand or get it. Another thing that I’d experienced around the loneliness piece too was particularly when my spouse was at the beginning of his diagnosis and treatment, he really had to focus on that. He needed to put all his energy there where it needed to be, so there was a time I was single parenting in a two-parent family.

That can be a lonely experience too, going to one of the kids’ activities where they’re playing lacrosse or whatever the case is, and you’re in the stands by yourself, but it’s an experience that you wish you could be sharing with the other parent, so that can feel lonely as well. That you wish you had that other person there, but they’re just not up to it, just not capable.

Brian

Can you think back of the first time you felt that? When did you feel lonely? Can you think of yourself walking around Meaford?

Laryssa

That’s a good question. Well, it certainly wasn’t in Meaford. I would say it was even before that. I think it was at the beginning of us living with post-traumatic stress disorder, probably even prior to the diagnosis. Because for us, it was 10 years initially between the initial injury and the diagnosis. Ten years is a long time. That loneliness I think I experienced there, but didn’t know what it was because back at that time, the term “operational stress injury” hadn’t even been coined yet, let alone families being educated on what to look for, what to recognize.

I just felt this void. I felt a disconnection from my spouse, and totally didn’t know what it was. Thought it was me for a long time, or thought it was my own mental health. It was a long time before we realized what it was. I can’t pinpoint an exact scenario, but I just remember early on before we even knew it was happening that I felt very alone.

Brian

I even went through that while in uniform. I remember coming back from a deployment once, and people were happy to see you but some were disconnected from what the job actually was even though they were uniform too, that it was treated like we’re on a vacation. Like you’ve missed out on what we’ve been doing, because you’ve been gone. And in my mind, it’s like, do these people have the slightest clue of what we’ve just been up to? That’s an example for me of how you can even be in the team, in the room full of people but when that connection breaks, okay, I’m on my own. I don’t know if loneliness has to happen on your lonesome.

I know how to be lonely in a town of two million people. And it’s just to give myself that sense that these people don’t get me… it’s pretty lonely, but those are the things I think of. Sometimes when people say, big, big issues like suicide… well, what do we do about it? The truth is, I don’t have that answer for you, but I suspect extreme loneliness to be a part of that. Since I don’t know what to do about suicide, I’m pretty interested to see if we can chip away at loneliness.

Laryssa

Yes, I think we can understand that depression or the symptoms of PTSD kind of lead to that isolation. I mean, like we said, it’s kind of one of the clusters of symptoms. I find so much irony that, as I said, for a group of people that seem so connected to me from as an outsider, the civilian looking in, that many Veterans are feeling that isolation. Like I said, it seems ironic that they come from that cohesive group to experiencing that loneliness on a different level than other people do, and same, Brian, what is the solution? I know that so many people are encouraging Veterans to reach out, to get connected, to find peer support, but when that’s one of the symptoms you’re battling it can feel extremely daunting.

Brian

Yes, I think when I look at the different types of people that mimic the military, it can be a documentary that missed the point, or a movie that shows it as just a field full of Rambo’s. I watch people doing the reenacting side or the airsoft thing. What are they actually missing? And their drills are brutal and they’re not in shape and all that kind of stuff. Let’s be fair, it’s odd in its own way in the way I look at it, but what I think they’re missing is if you’re trying to recreate the military environment by guns and kit and gear, you’re missing out on what it is.

If you want to recreate the military environment, go suffer for a bit as a team until it’s funny. That’s the army. Because the kit will change and we’ll buy a new gun someday, but if we’re running the military right, it will still feel like a team, we will still build success by going through pain together, and so that’s what they’re missing. I haven’t seen an organization out there that recreates that to satisfy the itch. There are some things close.

Laryssa

Right, okay, so for you once you’ve released, you’re not experiencing that group suffering, being wet and cold or whatever, that actually kind of probably binds the group. So once you’re released from the military and you don’t have that anymore, how do you combat loneliness?

Brian

Well, what I found was the first thing I had to combat was a lack of motivation, because the loneliness was a result of it. We’ve spoken about this in so much as taking out the garbage has a point in the military. It’s not just the garbage, it’s the health of your troops. Your guys are better off when there’s not crap everywhere and they’re not going to get sick. So there’s a reason we do it. But back home, it’s really easy to not get motivated for stuff you don’t want to do and the garbage piles up. And so I look at it even like that is, I had to remind myself: get off your ass, get stuff done, get up on time.

There you go from this life of getting up and you’re running every morning by 6:00 a.m., which is a little silly, but you can quite easily go to a life where you don’t get up till 11:30 a.m. and you’re basically just existing a couple hours till it’s beer o’clock and then you’re going— like, that’s real easy to get into. And then the result of that is the disconnection. You’re disconnected from yourself, from your drives, from the stuff that makes you excited, what brings you joy… you probably aren’t doing any of that either. I look at those two things as linked. I don’t know if they are, but to me they are.

Laryssa

Okay. So how did you find that again? I’m assuming you started small because some of that feels overwhelming, to go from having no motivation and just getting up at 11:00 a.m. and I can imagine some days it takes so much energy just to have a shower, to then actually going and experiencing things that you used to enjoy before, that can feel like a huge leap for some people.

Brian

Yes, a lot of it was listening to my own advice that I would give others. One of the things that I would always take stock of when I was trying to assess how a friend was doing was what’s the state of their car, what’s the state of their house? Is there crap everywhere? Are they becoming a hoarder, are they accumulating all this stuff? If someone used to organize a LAV so meticulously that the CQ would walk by and go, “It’s good,” that’s a pretty high sense of order. Then to see that guy two years later and his car’s broken down, he hasn’t changed the oil and there’s burger wrappers all over the place, that might be someone else’s normal, but it’s not his.

I was so good at being able to spot that in other people, like friend X is deteriorating, and I can see it, and then I’d go home to my crap all over the place and my laundry laying on the floor and I couldn’t see that. Listen to what you’re telling other people, do it yourself, get your ass off the couch. And y’know, real easy in this conversation we could actually be having the service dog conversation, because I actually credit my dog with a lot of things I’m talking to you about. When I had Sasha, the best thing she brought back into my life was stuff had to happen. The dog needed to walk, needed to be fed, it deserved pets. Next thing you know, I’m getting outside, my ass is off the couch, and I’m petting the dog, and I’m connecting with at least something.

Laryssa

Yes, it sounds like number one, she provided routine, because I’m sure she would let you know if you ignored her after a while, so there was a routine and kind of a sense of purpose. You had to get up because she depended on you. I think those are two key things, and I read something one time about a clinician working with someone who was hospitalized for depression, they lacked motivation, and couldn’t even get out of bed or make their bed or anything during the day.The clinician said to them, “Well, do you think you could put your pillow at the top of the bed when you get out? Do you think you could just do that?”

The person’s like, “Yes, I think I could do that,” so they started with the person just putting a pillow at the top of the bed. And then the clinician was like, “Do you think you could just put the pillow at the top of the bed and then pull the sheet to the top?” So by that the person was taking those steps, and eventually they were able to make their whole bed and there was a sense of accomplishment and routine every morning, they would get up and do that. But I think that might be a key for people, too, is just to start small with those things. And in reducing isolation, maybe it is just a text to someone else, maybe it is just a phone call. It’s interesting because it sounds like you were motivated enough to get up and check on someone else.

Brian

Yes, and you know why I’m laughing at what you’re saying is it’s not unlike military training in the first place. You don’t touch the rifle until you can make a bed. It really is like that. When you’re going through that stuff, it’s like really, does the dust cover have to be 24 inches or two bayonet lengths? Is there any normal functioning person out there measuring their bed with a rifle magazine right now? Well, in the army there is, but why do we do that? Because that’s a stepping stone to handing you something that could be devastating if used improperly. Maybe I want to see if you can fold a sock first.

I wonder if that’s what we have to do once we’re out is almost basic training ourselves back into the real world again. I know in my case, I was fantastic at getting other people to get into their dentist appointment. I hadn’t gone in three years. What’s that about? I make my kids go. They’re on time. My soldiers were always on time.

Laryssa

I was going to say, is that part of mission before self? It seems to be a theme we keep coming back to.

Brian

Yes, it can be. I feel like I’m doing the right thing when I’m looking out for other people, and I feel like I’m being selfish when I look out for me.

Laryssa

So what recommendations, what would you say to another Veteran who is probably isolating for a lot of the reasons that you spoke about? Not feeling understood by their Family members, the community, maybe it’s part of their symptomology that they just feel more comfortable. Maybe they’re moving away from the noise that you talk about. So there’s a Veteran who’s listening to the podcast and feeling that sense of disconnection, loneliness… what would you say to them?

Brian

One of the things I would say is do you really know what brings you joy? And make a list, a short list. As many others have said, 218 things is not a list. That’s a dream. With a list, it’s got to be a couple things. What actually would make you want to get out of bed and do stuff? You’re not cheating life if you take a half hour in the morning for you, but I did feel that. And so in my situation, the dog was a thing to do. One other thing that helped me as well was change some of the rules around in the house so I was the one that dropped the kids off at school. That meant I had to be shaved, clean, dressed, had to get some food into my face.

I forced function on myself because that had worked before, would probably work now. I’m not telling people, “Hey, get a dog and take your kids to school every day,” but that helped me. Let’s toss the tables back on you here, because you’re more comfortable asking me questions, putting me on the spot. When it was time for your husband to depart the Forces, is there a portion now where you’re isolated? Where you’re wondering, who the hell am I and where am I? Who gets me?

Laryssa

I’m lucky enough to say no, because I choose to put myself in a place that I don’t feel that. I work within the Veteran and Family field. Majority of my friends—actually, I think all of my friends— are spouses of Veterans or Veterans themselves. It’s interesting to me, and it’s a bit more of an effort for me to connect with civilians, but I still put myself out there to try and make that connection and find commonalities, but I’m still pretty much embedded in it. However, it was impactful for me when my spouse did retire because it was a piece of my identity as well.

I think in the times you asked me before, and on times that I felt isolated and lonely and I was like, “How did I get through that?” I had to take a chance and put myself out there, because even within that community that I had surrounded myself with, I still felt that loneliness and I felt alone. And I had to take a chance at some point in time to find someone who I trusted, who I thought maybe they might understand what I’m going through, and I would just disclose a little bit or like I said, I would make that one text or that one phone call.

And even though maybe the commitment I made to myself was it’s just going to be a short conversation, or I’m just going to disclose this much, or I just might ask this one question, that led me to feel that maybe I wasn’t as alone as I thought I was. It led me to believe that maybe I wasn’t as misunderstood as I thought I was. I just had to find the people who understood me.

I had to create that community and those connections around me, but I had to take the initiative to reach out initially, because probably for other people looking at me, maybe within my work environment or taking my kids here and there, I might’ve look like I was doing really great. You can put on the face for so long. You’re out in public and you’re engaging with other people and having conversations, so it might not have looked to people like I was struggling with feeling alone, but…

Brian

I think as well there’s tiers of family in the military too, right? There’s the Family that lives in your home, they’re leaving your life with you. They are in the military environment, they don’t wear a uniform. We all get that. Then there’s the people that are connected to you like Family, but they live in society. Thinking of it that way is what I mean when I tell people we are a culture. Are we all the same? Well, no, but do we have a way of living? When we’re dislocated from that, we feel crappy. I certainly did.

And I look at it like where I used to live in Vancouver, the area right around the corner is called Killarney. That’s because all the Irish people went there. Why are all the good Italian restaurants on Commercial Drive? Because that’s where all the Italians went. So why is it so weird when our culture of people may not still be in Italy, Ireland or the army, but we want to hang out, we feel connection to the people that know what we’re talking about and we feel a little distant from the people that don’t. What’s wrong with that?

Laryssa

Yes, that’s a great point.

Brian

We are a culture, an odd one. Our food sucks, but it is distinct in its own way. I never feel the need to apologize about why I want to be around other soldiers. I don’t feel the need to apologize about why their family that have lived with them are just going to get me probably more than my other good friends.

Laryssa

Yes, it’s true.

Brian

Right? That’s a bit of it. You ever go to a wedding where half the people are military in the room, the other half are normal people? You can physically see the cleave right down the center of the room as the odd joke people and the strange conversations are over there, and then the rest of it’s over here. And there’s love and compassion and friendship going everywhere, but I’m probably going to want to go hang out with those guys. I feel more comfortable around other people that are willing to rip me apart than I do around people that are gingerly wondering if they’re going to bother me.

There’s comfort in people tearing a strip off you a little bit. So when I’m surrounded by people, from the kindness of their heart, that are trying to look out for me, they don’t want to ever say anything that bothers me… there’s loneliness there. And they’re trying to help. So with all this discussion, are you lonely now?

Laryssa

Not lonely now, but I have come to a point that when I can feel myself starting to withdraw, number one, I have some good friends who call me out on it because I’ve let myself be vulnerable and have conversations—

Brian

So what do they notice? What are they making you be honest with?

Laryssa

I stop engaging with them. Maybe not texting as much or my conversations are shorter or that type of thing, so if they don’t hear from me, they’ll check in more often. Yes, so you have to take some ownership and put some work into that as well.

Brian

My friends do unannounced visits. For me at first when I hear that car coming in the driveway, like, who the hell is this? I want a break. But when they come through the house, I’m glad to see them. I’m glad they’re there. That’s one thing that’s actually been really helpful on our side.

I think for me it’s like, if I’m going to call a spade of spade, they’re probably sensing I’m making some BS excuses of why I’ve disengaged in the first place. I’m not that busy. I can come over, I choose not to. That’s the truth of it. The answer that they might get is about what I might have to do tomorrow or a new puppy or whatever I’ve come up with.

What I think they’re doing is when they’ve just heard too much of that for them to be comfortable, they walk in the front door, and I thank them for it. Well maybe I haven’t actually thanked them for it, but I should because it works. I don’t know, that’s a Brian answer as to what you could do. Maybe if you went out and tried that, you’d just everybody off, so… I don’t know. Well, it works for me.

Laryssa

It comes back to buddy check and so yes, I think that’s what I alluded to either is maybe you reach out to that one person that you feel that you might be able to trust and you need to open yourself up a little bit, and be willing to put some energy in and like I said, be accountable.

Brian

I’m willing to be educated on this. I have been recently, I always thought no one was on this. In fact, no one’s on it to the point that what will happen when I bring up the discussion? Will I get the weird looks around the room? What I have found though is there are people that are on it. There’s some work that’s been done. Partners of ours in Australia have done one that—I haven’t read it yet but I’m certainly going to be. What I was happy about was whenever I’ve mentioned other Veterans or people working in this space about loneliness, the nodding happens, everyone knows. It is one of those unspoken conversations. So where are we at with it?

What in the end are we going to do? Well, this, we have the conversation. I’m interested to see what the comments are from the public about it. I think that will spur more conversations. If you think about everything that gets done in our space, 15 years ago, someone was brave enough to have put up their hand and go, “Hey, maybe we should talk about this.”

Laryssa

Well, as you’re saying that, I’m imagining—again, as I said, I didn’t talk to other people because I didn’t think they’re experiencing the same thing. Because we’re having more conversations and more people are nodding their head, this is all to say that probably you’re not the only one experiencing that loneliness. You’re not the only person, maybe of the group of people that you served with. As you said, maybe that’s the motivators, why don’t you reach out to somebody else?

Brian

We work around science, but we don’t live our lives scientifically, so I don’t live by definitions. In my mind, isolation, lack of motivation and loneliness are very, very linked. To me they are. I’m sure someone out there is already writing down their argument to what I’m saying, but that’s what was true for me, and so some of the solutions to the loneliness were cracking those other two. And I suspect cracking loneliness a little bit might be a solution to some bigger problems that I don’t have good answers for you on. I don’t know what to do about some big stuff, but I think we can get somewhere if we work on this.

Laryssa

Yes, agreed.