Episode 9 – ‘Kiev looks like Sarajevo’ with Scott Casey

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 9: KIEV LOOKS LIKE SARAJEVO WITH SCOTT CASEY

Brian

This is Mind Beyond the Mission, a podcast by Veterans and Veteran Family members. I’m one of your hosts, Brian McKenna, 19 years Veteran of the Canadian Army.

Laryssa

And I’m Laryssa Lamrock, a proud Veteran Family member.

Brian

What we’re going to be getting into today is a little bit about Ukraine and we’re actually going to be talking about the Balkans as well. This podcast is meant to be conversational. It’s exploring issues important to Veterans and Veteran Family members. We’re not doctors. We don’t claim to be. But this podcast is meant to not be medical advice, it’s us talking about how we see things.

Laryssa

Today we welcome Scott Casey, who served in Sarajevo during the siege as a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment. He is also one of the contributors to Military Minds and founder behind The Rolling Barrage. He’s also the author of Ghostkeepers. Scott’s been interviewed on mental health many times and he currently lives in Merritt, B.C.

Brian

It’s good to see you, Scott. We chatted a little bit yesterday, but here we’re rolling with this. One of the things that came up in the last little while… Ukraine is awful. The situation there is just horrible. We’re not making the claim that it’s easier on anyone else, but there were a couple of cases of Balkan Veterans coming forward and reaching out to people and saying, “Look, those memories, those nightmares that I was having years ago, they’re coming back. I’m seeing things and I’m in a different place. I’m looking at Ukraine on TV, but I’m in Tuzla, I’m in Banja Luka, I’m in wherever.” That was really the start point of having this conversation. As soon as that came up, I thought we got to get you on.

Scott

I appreciate that, Brian, absolutely. Thanks for having me on, both you and Laryssa. The whole Balkans conflict over the— it’s been 30 years now for some of us and to be slammed right back into that visual and that memory three decades later, it’s been pretty troubling for a lot of Vets.

Brian

One of the things that happened to me somewhat recently, in September, I was in Winnipeg, and we were there for a conference. The hotels reached out to us and said, “Look, just so you know, these are reception centers for Ukrainian refugees.” Fine, no big deal. I get there and there’s just this moment where I’m sitting in the lobby waiting for my colleagues. I see this lineup of folks that were lining up to register and get whatever aid and help was there. As soon as I heard that language, it’s not the same. Cyrillic language has got a common sound.

I saw those faces. I saw the look of desperation on the faces of people lining up for something and it was like, “Yup, I remember what that looks like.” That floored me more than a car backfiring, more than a stack of pallets, more than the fridge door in Safeway which sounds like a distant mortar when someone slams it. Those things cause a little bit of an incidental reminder. This was different. This knocked me off my heels a little bit. The good news is once I came out of that, we figured out we had to have this chat.

Laryssa

Similar experience coming from my observation as a Family member. We’d love to hear your perspective and your experience about all of that as well, Scott. For those of you who served in the military or been military Family members, you know that the Canadian military is a pretty small Family in some ways. I came to discover that Scott and my husband both did their basic training together.

When the events first occurred in Ukraine, I really watched Steve and his emotional struggle being a Veteran at the time. He was medically released, hadn’t served for quite a few years, but I could see that desire and that inner turmoil he had on that he needed to be there. We actually had very serious conversations in our house about whether he would be finding another means to go to Ukraine to contribute with the training and knowledge that he had.

As a matter of fact, my oldest son is a reservist and we had conversations as well. He felt that he needed to contribute. It just happens that my heritage is Ukrainian, so that was another layer of a sense of duty, I suppose. It was tough as a Family member to watch that kind of inner conflict. Just wondering, Scott, how you experienced things when things first unfolded in Ukraine.

Scott

Well, I’ll go back just a bit and I’ll say it was an honour to serve with Steve, your husband. He is a good soldier and an even better person. It’s been really nice to know him over the years. He and I have reconnected as well. Brian, yeah, with the cumulative traumas, with the concussions and mortar fire and the first shots and so on, all that stuff resonates still today. It took me years to just be able to drive by the Croatian Civic Centre in Prince George years ago because they had the flag flying and just to get those images and try and get them squared away in my head that I wasn’t there anymore, that I was in Canada and safe.

Then with the annex of Crimea and everything that was happening in the Ukraine area, it was tough to watch. Then of course, the blue and yellow flags come out in support and so you’re constantly bombarded with all of these issues and all of these images and that creates issues. Even if you don’t recognize them right at the beginning, they definitely exist and they start to exude from your personality. They just start coming out in things that you do in day-to-day.

And that stuff is registered, Laryssa, through Family members. When the war in Ukraine first started, I didn’t realize that I had been emitting this energy in my home and my wife Leslie, it took about three weeks, but she finally asked me. She says, “When are you leaving?” It stopped me in my tracks because I didn’t realize— at first, I didn’t even know what she was talking about because I travel quite a bit. And she said, “No, when are you going to the Ukraine?” and I said, “Well, I’m not. I’m not in the army anymore.” [laughter]

Brian

But you thought about it. [laughter]

Scott

Oh yeah, absolutely, and that’s the thing. She registered that, right? She knew that my everyday thought was, “What can I do to go over there and provide and get in the fight?” Thankfully, I’ve done a lot of homework over the years. I’m also 56 and my parts don’t work as well as I used to. My knees, my back, shoulder. I’ve got 26 concussions. The list goes on. It’s just one of those things where I had to accept the fact that I wasn’t going back. That left me with other issues as well.

Brian

One of the things that we’ve talked about a little bit is that when I’m looking at similarities between the Balkans and Ukraine, there are some ways it’s quite significantly different. If someone’s going over there, you’re openly fighting the Russians. That’s what’s going on. This is conventional war. This is what we trained for years, but there’s something about urban fighting that’s particularly nasty. What do you think of when you hear that?

Scott

Well, urban warfare is, essentially, you’re in a town and you are dealing with the possibility of civilian casualties. As we witnessed in the Balkans there, the civilian casualty numbers were appalling. That’s no different now in Ukraine. There are civilians that are being killed daily. What thoughts come to mind? Well, what if that was my Family? What if that was my friend’s Family?

Those are things that really hit home. It puts a human element to everything you see on the screen because newspapers and television and so on, they have an ability to dehumanize things even when they’re trying to tell a good story because you’re not able to feel what’s happening on the screen. It’s a two-dimensional image essentially, so you don’t get that, the human factor. That’s where my mind goes.

Brian

We mentioned some of the differences. What are some of the similarities? You haven’t been in Sarajevo since, what, 1994?

Scott

Nineteen ninety-two.

Brian

Nineteen ninety-two, right, so 30 years and counting. When you watch this stuff on the news, is it still 30 years ago?

Scott

No, it’s like right now. It’s like yesterday. It’s like tomorrow. That’s the stuff. You see it and then intrusive images and intrusive memories come back regardless of how hard you fight against it and what kind of work you’ve done clinically to try and master that stuff. It gets put in a box, but it still comes through. It still comes out. Those images put me right back there every day.

Laryssa

First of all, did that surprise you 30 years later that it still feels so current? Were you prepared for that? I’m going to throw two questions at you. My first question is whether you were prepared for that or not. Then I’d really be curious to hear about how you cope with it, whether you have strategies, or how do you deal with that?

Scott

Well, both great questions. First one is [chuckles] I was surprised that it’s been 30 years since we were in the Balkans and in Sarajevo. At the same time I’m not because I’ve been involved in Veterans’ advocacy and mental wellness with Vets and serving soldiers for almost 25 years now. Five years after I got out was essentially when I took my first phone call to help a buddy so that he didn’t kill himself.

So we fast forward to today and so how do I deal with that, knowing that it’s 30 years ago but it’s still fresh today? I use mindfulness. I use breathing exercises. There’s a lot of stuff out there that can be used. I just actually started using CBD for pain. I grew up in a generation where drugs were bad and alcohol was great. It’s taken me a long time to really get past that point and actually use some of these new treatments for me to mitigate my pain issues, which helps out with my mindfulness.

Laryssa

Something I wanted to pick up on, Scott. You’re talking about how you continue to serve your community for 25 years. You’ve been providing support to other Veterans and still serving members. How does that help you in your own journey? And I wondered, have you had conversations with other Veterans around events in Ukraine and now with Sudan? Have you talked to your buddies about that? Because I would imagine that would be reassuring in some ways to know that you’re not the only one that was ready to jump on a plane, so to speak. Where does that social support fit for you?

 Scott

Having done this for 25 years, it does help me stay grounded. I’m always busy. I don’t allow myself too much time to rest. Because when I rest, that’s when I crash. The little gerbil starts to go in my brain. That’s when all the stuff starts to happen. I stay very active. I find that helping others relieves the helplessness that we felt when we were over there.

Especially upon homecoming, that’s where the helplessness really manifests itself because you realize that you couldn’t do the things that needed to be done to save people’s lives, save their wellness, save their families, save their homes. Being able to help people today on whatever level is extremely gratifying and helps with that helplessness piece. What it does is to say that it also relieves hopelessness. You’re giving other people hope as well as yourself because you can see an opportunity for people to find wellness as well.

Brian

These days, when someone reaches out for help, those conversations, they’re good to have. They’re relieving to have in a lot of ways, but they can be tricky. To get someone to talk to you about what’s going on with them, you’ve got to open up your own shield a little bit, right? How do you manage your triggers when there’s still other Veterans out there that need help when the phone still keeps ringing, the Facebook messages keep coming in, and you find yourself absorbing some of the stuff through media? How do you manage those things yourself?

Scott

Well, I have this glorious thing called a motorcycle [laughter]. That’s one way that I do it, I get on my bike and I go for a ride. That’s my key tool for my personal wellness to deal with triggers and just to let the energy out of myself. I put it out through my bike and so on. The other thing I do is I’m also involved in writing. Just recently I started writing music. Not notes, but writing the words for the lyrics for songs. That stuff helps out as well.

Brian

I want to get into videos here because this is one of the trickier parts of this. My own experience with this, someone will send me a video and say, “Oh, you got to check this out. This is a video from what’s going on overseas,” and I get really torn by it. If I ignore it, I feel like I’m hiding from the fact there’s still conflict out there. You know that whole “catch the torch” that got written into Flanders Fields? Well, conflict will always be there. At times, I feel like, “Well, if I’m not paying attention to this, it almost feels like I’m denying that these things are still going on.”

But then when I click on that thing, it’s not always a smart move. It certainly isn’t a smart move as I’m about to go to bed. When you reach for your phone to try to entertain yourself as you’re trying to fall asleep, what a terrible thing to do as you’re trying to fall asleep is to touch your phone, let alone put on a Ukraine conflict video at about 10:00 p.m., but I’ve done it. I don’t recommend it. In fact, I recommend the opposite, but I will also admit that I’ve done it. How do those videos play out for you?

Scott

It’s funny you mentioned just even picking up your phone. If you’re looking for sleep, picking up your phone and looking at that screen even with the blue light filter isn’t even a good idea. It engages your brain in ways that is not restful, is not mindful, then you top that off with watching what we describe in the Veteran’s community as “war porn.” That in itself, it’s going to elevate your responses right away. Whether you accept it or not, your amygdala flares up because it’s reacting to what you’re seeing on the screen.

That sends all the other senses in your body for a loop. You’ve got that fear, flight and freeze responses going on. As soon as that happens, you’re not going to get any good sleep. You’re not going to get that good rest that you need. To be mindful and to do well in your day-to-day life, you need to have rest. For years I would get three to four hours of sleep and it would be even lessened if I was watching that sort of interview just before bed. It’s not good for you to go without sleep. It’s really smart to put that stuff away.

Laryssa

Sounds like you’ve come up with some really great strategies, Scott. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of work to be aware of where you’re at. If I can flip it back a little bit, I find the conversation that you had with your wife, Leslie, really fascinating. I think part of it is because you mentioned when you and I chatted before that you met Leslie after your service but seems that she knew enough about you to know what was going through your mind.

I really admire her for opening that conversation with you because maybe if she wouldn’t have done that, wouldn’t have broached it, she wouldn’t have known your mindset. So I’m going to assume that there’s a lot of Veterans that have felt similar to you, Brian, and you, Scott, and Steve that don’t talk to their Family members about it.

So what would you say to Veterans who maybe feel that their Family members don’t understand actually? I’m going to again make another assumption that might be one of the reasons why Veterans don’t talk to their Families about it because maybe the Families can feel resentful that, “You have a Family here. Why would you choose to go?” Find a question in there. I feel like there’s just so much going on that I can relate to.

Brian

One of the things with it is, okay, talk to people. Fine. Say what exactly, right?

Scott

Well, that’s it. One thing that I’ve noticed talking with Vets who have read my book, and this isn’t a shameless plug, this is what it is, they realize that after their Family members had read Ghostkeepers that they could relate. Finally there was that switch for them, that click. They’d go, “Okay, now I get what’s going on.” It depends on the conflict. If there’s literature out there, somebody else’s book that relates to that specific tour or that conflict, I would recommend Family members to try and educate themselves on that.

Then also try and do some work on understanding trauma. Learn what posttraumatic stress is. Learn what critical incident stress is. Learn the buzzwords that go along with that stuff, operational stress injury. These are all little keys that Family members can learn about. When I first got home, I didn’t talk to anybody. Nobody from any group. It wasn’t until 2008 that I received an actual diagnosis.

Even still today, and this isn’t a pat on the back or a crowning achievement, I’m still rated as one of the highest levels of posttraumatic stress from the CAF. It’s essential that you advocate for yourself first. If you can’t do that, then you need to initially start talking to somebody. That includes giving me a call or sending me a message. I mean that. I’m always open to try and help people and that includes Family members as well.

Brian

I just had a conversation with a buddy yesterday and I’m going to meet him after this. My advice to him is really just a carbon copy of good advice that was given to me a long time ago, which was, “When you’re trying to get better and you’re moving on from the Forces, this is the time to get selfish. This is the time to actually start looking out for Brian and doing the things that’ll set your path up.”

I have a colleague that I work with that when he did his degree— no, wrong, his Master’s— when he went to do his Master’s and he had to write his final paper, he wrote about peacekeeping. He certainly did his assignment as was detailed, but in his assignment, there was almost an educational flare to it. He really wanted to teach people what peacekeeping actually was like. That’s one of the things I can actually tie a connection to, to your writing.

When you wrote Ghostkeepers, to me, as a reader, it seemed like you’re doing at times a first-person narrative but really a chronicle as how this thing happened in a front-to-back experience of that tour. There is an educational piece in your writing. You, it seems to me, are trying to explain to people what peacekeeping can really be like. Sometimes it is handing out toys to kids off the back of a truck. I did distribute blankets. That’s not a lie. That did happen. What else happens in peacekeeping?

Scott

Well, there’s all kinds of stuff that occurs that people don’t realize. There are so many elements that are unknown to the outside world. Our citizens at home have no concept of what goes on in countries where lawlessness through warfare exists. One of the examples I used is we were at a drop point. We were delivering humanitarian aid and I watched a drug deal go down. We’re talking two hockey bags full of cocaine. To see that happening right while we’re trying to provide aid, food, medicine and so on to the citizens of Sarajevo and there’s these two guys with AK-74s and two hockey bags doing a switch. One guy’s got a bag full of money, the other guy’s got a bag full of cocaine and they do the switch right in the middle of the Olympic stadium. It was mind-blowing.

But that’s not within your arcs. That’s not within your rules of engagement. You’re not allowed to deal with that. That’s part of the crazy stuff. In the Ukraine now, the rules of engagement are very simple. You close with and destroy the enemy by day or by night. Now, in peacekeeping, it’s not like that. Your hands are tied a lot of the times.

Brian

There’s a saying that the enemy gets a vote. In other words, in Ottawa, you can call something a training mission if you like. You can call it peacekeeping, you can call it distributing aid, whatever, but the enemy gets a vote. If they decide that it’s combat today, well, then it is. That, I think, is something that bears some unique pain. How does this relate to Ukraine? Well, there have been advise and assist missions and training missions and things like that, but the end of the day, that mission tomorrow can be whatever the enemy decides it’s going to be. What happens must be handled, right?

You don’t get to turn back and go, “Well, we’re just here to train, so we’re not going to handle that circumstance.” I think that’s one of the things that I’ve noticed a lot. Ukraine’s been raging for more than a year. What is the response of Veterans a year later? This isn’t ending tomorrow and probably isn’t over by the end of summer. What does that feeling that this is an enduring nightmare, what does that bring up for you?

Scott

I think something to keep in mind when we think about the Ukraine and what’s happening, this is a multi-layer situation in that at home here, we might be thinking, “Oh yeah, I should probably get in the fight. I should probably go and join. I still have some skills and I’m still fairly fit” and so on. But then there’s that other part where we have troops in Latvia and we have troops in Poland that are training and they’re all in that region. And so, what do our Family members think?

They’re watching all of this stuff too and they are often filled with anxiety because they don’t know how close we really are to getting involved. We just sent tanks over there. We’ve sent millions in aid. These are precursors to stepping on the ground. This is very real and that’s the really tough part for Families. It’s not so much for us as former grunts or tankers or whatever our trades were. We’re used to that. We can deal with change like that, but the Families are the ones that really— they’re the ones that have to process this all the time.

Brian

What does it sound like to you, Laryssa, when you hear something, say on the news like, “These guys don’t have their meal claims sorted out overseas,” or “The transport is all broken down?” Does that fill you with confidence that everything else we’re using and doing in these situations is good to go?

Laryssa

Wow, there are so many layers there. I feel Families make sacrifices and serve in their own right as well. Thank you for what you were just acknowledging, Scott, about the feelings that Families must be going through in anticipation and everything that might go through their mind, realizing that their loved one may be deployed to a very dangerous place. There’s pride that’s wrapped up in that. As I said, there’s also that apprehension and that anxiety.

I guess as a Family member, I would assume or to presume that my son, should he deploy, will be taken care of to the best of Canada’s capability. If I’m making the sacrifices of Family to acknowledge that this is his calling, my son devotes himself to service, that I would want us to take care of our sons, daughters, moms, and dads that deploy. I can’t put my finger on the word, but “demoralizing” is not quite the word.

Brian

Going back 31 years here, when you come home from Sarajevo, first person in the Family asks, “Hey, how was it?” How’s that conversation go?

Scott

Well, it didn’t [laughs]. Short and sweet part of it is it didn’t happen. I was asked questions and I just wasn’t prepared to answer them. A lot of it just got shut down. I was a train wreck when I left the Forces because I served in Bosnia and Croatia in ’92, got back in the fall of ’93. We rotated back to Canada where I spent a year. And for me, I didn’t have a whole lot of connection to Family at that point because they were all in British Columbia and I was posted in Petawawa, Ontario. There were sporadic conversations via phone but even then, it was strained. Now, here we are today.

Brian

One thing that came up at work, I’ve actually mentioned your name a couple of times when you weren’t there. I was asked right around when I first got hired, “Where are the places that Veterans hang out? Where are they?” Well, there are organizations that have been around for a long time and sometimes they’re there. But sometimes they might just ride bikes together or they might go to the range together.

I tell you, I do that routinely. A lot of people in the mental health world will look at that and go, “Really? That’s your therapy?” Yes, absolutely that’s my therapy. I go to the range with my buddies. But you actually have an even more unique thing other than the bike riding. It was you that brought up to me, “Look, I work in heavy equipment. I work in the resource industry here.”

There’s a lot of Vets in the line of work you are in to the point that you’re actually able to connect some of them. You’ve got some peer support activities going on within your labor situation. That’s really in a place we’ve never gone to. When have you ever heard of a plumber’s union getting together and having a Veteran’s peer support outfit? You’ve actually done something like that in your neck of the woods. Could you walk us through what that looks like?

Scott

Yeah, it was initially started in the United States through the United Steelworkers. Tom Conway, he’s a Vietnam Veteran and he supported the Veterans of Steel movement within the United Steelworkers. And basically what that is, is Veterans helping Veterans and also establishing language within the union movement and having employers acknowledge what Veterans can contribute to the workforce and how to deal with them once they’re hired.

Because nobody’s asking to be handled with kid gloves but we need to have some framework built so that they know how to deal with disciplinary action and so on because a lot of the actions that we take aren’t understood in the civilian world. It might come across as a different idea. It might not be taken in a good light. Human resources and dealing with them and there’s a lot of jokes about that. “I didn’t tell that guy that he was an idiot, I asked him if he was an idiot,” right? [laughter]

And so that’s different. The disciplinary side of the house falls into place there. I started out as the national chair for Veterans of Steel in Canada and also the District 3 chair for Veterans of Steel, which encompasses all of Canada, Districts 3, 5, and 6. Then as the district chair, I looked after from Victoria all the way to the Manitoba on Ontario border, that’s District 3. I looked after all those locals and getting the framework for Veterans of Steel built in District 3.

Now it’s been written into all the local union bylaws, in District 3 anyhow, that they must have a Veterans of Steel committee at every local. Everybody is now within the United Steelworkers. Whoever’s there who are working with their employers, they have to have a Veterans chair there. Whether they have Veterans or not, they still have to have a committee. They have to have a chair to acknowledge that.

Laryssa

What a phenomenal model.

Brian

It’s just a really smart way of connecting people. They’re already there. They’re already working in each other’s space. Why not?

Laryssa

Also, on behalf of employers, Veterans have so much to offer and contribute to a workspace there. I could list all of the qualities. It would sound like it would be beneficial to the employer because they’re creating a space for camaraderie and cohesion. It’s great for the Veterans who— I’m sure it would be helpful in their post-release, the next chapter of their lives. I just want to thank you, Scott. Did you have another point?

Scott

Yeah, just one thing there. One thing that’s very critical for Veterans and their Families to do well after service is to be able to provide. When you transition from the Canadian Forces to the civilian world, it’s very important to seek and find gainful employment. Whether you’re male or female or otherwise, you need to provide for yourself and your Family. When you leave the Forces, it’s very important to be able to find a place of employment. Veterans of Steel is also working to try and find avenues to let employers know that, “Hey, we’re here and we’re willing to accept these people into the workforce and give everybody some guidance on both sides of the fence, be it employer or employee.”

Brian

As we wrap up here, I think people can get the sense that there are a lot of different topics we could have talked to you about. In fact, that was actually our debate is, “What are we going to table in front of Scott here?” It’s raining outside right now in Ottawa. One of the things I’m going to do because these conversations can be a little tricky sometimes, when I go outside, I’m actually going to stand there in the rain for a little bit and just feel it like intentionally feel the wet, feel the cold because that’s one of the things that reminds me you’re not in the places you were just talking about. You’re back here. Other than hopping on the bike, what are you going to do if something like that comes up for you? If you find that you’re a little peaked up still after this conversation, some call them “grounding techniques,” but what’s the Scott technique?

Scott

For me personally, I go out and I look at the sky. Whether it’s raining or sunny or whatever, I go out and I look up there because it’s so vast. It’s way bigger than all of us [laughs]. This is also overwhelming. There’s so much pressure on me. I just look up and I’m just like, “Okay, there’s a lot bigger stuff than me. I can deal with this.” I just try and then I start breathing and bringing myself, just try and mitigate all of those thoughts.

Brian

We’ve been talking today for a little bit here, but you and I have been talking for the better part of a decade. I just wanted to close by saying thank you for all you did for me and thanks for all that you did for Veterans.

Laryssa

Yes, thanks.

Scott

Thanks, Brian. I’ll just say to Brian, thanks for always being there for me as well.

Brian

If people want to read what we’ve been talking about here, Ghostkeepers is available to be found in a number of different places. I’ve got a copy on my shelf. Don’t borrow mine, you’ve got to go buy one yourself. I’m going to leave here and do a little bit more research on Veterans of Steel because I actually understood it to be just a local thing. From your sound, it’s a lot more extensive and bigger. Maybe we need to look at that more. Where are they? Where else are they getting together in peer support avenues that we’re not normally looking?

 Laryssa

That sense of connection seems to be a theme that’s emerging through all of our podcasts. I want to thank you, Scott, for what you continue to do, the connections you continue to maintain and create opportunity for other Veterans and, by extension, for Family members. Thank you for all you do.

Brian

Take care, Scott.