Episode 20 – Hypervigilance: The hidden strain on Veteran Families

MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 20: HYPERVIGILANCE: THE HIDDEN STRAIN ON VETERAN FAMILIES

Brian

You found our podcast. We are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families and specifically mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals. We’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa

I’m a Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families. We’re back on Mind Beyond the Mission. As usual, Laryssa and I are going to take a crack at something new, and this time it’s going to be hypervigilance that we’re talking about. When I talk about hypervigilance in the community, I’m actually talking about the perfect amount of vigilance, but for somewhere else, right? I think of obviously my own scenarios, but I think about that cop that goes home and the perfect amount of vigilance.

I mean, not everyone is happy to see a police officer. His ride home, he’s still in that completely different frame of mind. She’s in that frame of mind when she hops out of the car and people in the neighborhood know that that’s a cop. That’s the type of hypervigilance I’m speaking about. The one that’s absolutely perfect and needed for somewhere other than when you walk inside the house or when you go to the pub or when you go on vacation. How’s that sound?

Laryssa

Yes, I think something comes to mind right away when you’re talking about that. My husband and I took a trip to Europe about five years ago. A lot of planning goes into that. It was not an inexpensive vacation.

Brian

Admin, not planning. It’s admin.

Laryssa

Okay. Something we were both looking forward to, had our roots picked. We compromised on what places we were going to go see. There was an extra step, an extra level of administration, if you will, that I think most other Families don’t have to go through that I wonder if many Veteran Families would understand.

Brian

He had the routes, he probably had alternate routes, probably had contingency plans for everything that could happen in the vehicle. What’s wrong with that?

Laryssa

I guess nothing, depending on who you’re talking to.

Brian

Sounds romantic.

Laryssa

There you go. The one specific place was the Louvre. Someplace I’d always wanted to go. We had to do like pre scouting of it beforehand. There was like a plan for when we arrived there that he had to debrief or brief me on before we even went. “Okay, we’re going to go in, we’re going to get through the lineup. Then we’re going to stand to the side.” He needs to do a perimeter check.

He needs to know where all the exits are in the event that he becomes triggered at some point. “This is where we’re going to step aside to.” It was this whole pre planning conversation because he needed to be aware of his surroundings and as comfortable as possible. It took a bit of the romance, the trip to the Louvre, you know what I’m saying?

Brian

I think of it that while there’s no place you would like to fight because soldiers don’t like war, but we think about it a lot. You would prefer to fight in the desert where our stuff’s generally better than theirs. Our stuff can generally hit farther than theirs. Meaning if we line up with our gear and face each other, we’re probably going to win. Then if you wanted it a little more complicated, you would probably bring a couple of tree lines and bushes and valleys and mountains into it. The absolute worst is urban fighting.

We live in urban. Our hospitals are in urban. Our kids go to school in urban. You want to go to an art museum in probably one of the most heavily urbanized places in the world. I think about, I’ve never seen a Veteran grow up in the countryside, go through tough experiences and then want to go to a bigger city. In fact, I normally see that if they come from Vancouver, then they want to go to Hope.

If they come from Hope, then they want to go to Spuzzum or Houston. Yes, there’s a Houston in BC. A lot of the things that you might want to do, or we need to do as a Family, or are enjoyable to “normal” people are in the trickiest place for us to let our hair down. I’ll ask you this, does the same exact thing happen if you try to do like a hunting trip, camping trip? There’s probably procedures he goes through there, but probably less.

Laryssa

Yes, I think so. Of course, places that he’s more familiar with, if he is with another Veteran —

Brian

Yes, different story.

Laryssa

Different story altogether, which, as a Family member, as his partner, and I call myself his fire team partner sometimes, that’s hard for a Family member to take sometimes. There’s this different level of comfort when there’s another Veteran there as opposed to me, who I like to think I have situational awareness and that I’m switched on and aware of my surroundings and attuned to his needs and such. The reality is I don’t have the same training. It’s still hard as a Family member to think.

Brian

Do you know when it’s hard to describe but you can look at a person and know that they have confidence and you can also look at a person and you can see a timid nature of meekness about them before they say a word. That would probably be a common sensation to the average citizen. We know it but we don’t know how. We can generally tell who knows how to fight and when that guy walks into the restaurant that you can tell has capability about them, we’re in a different scenario. There is no romantic dinner happening there.

If the kids just started their chicken strips, they’re probably going to be encouraged to wolf them down and hurry up because, let’s get out of here, right? Families don’t go to restaurants with the intent of eating and bolting as quickly as possible. They go to chill and not go home for an hour and not get out of there. I know for me sometimes those places are some of the worst places to go and if I go with other people that think and react like I do and I know it’s overthinking and overreacting, but when I go with vets, with my friends, it’s a completely different experience.

Laryssa

If we can just drill down for a second because there might be some people who totally get what we’re talking about when we say hypervigilance and there might be some that think they get it and some that don’t. Maybe, how would you describe what hypervigilance is for people who might be like, I think I get it but I’m not really sure.

Brian

Sure. What do you normally bring to a restaurant? What stuff?

Laryssa

A way to pay and my car keys.

Brian

Right. Backpack, it really doesn’t make sense, right? Makes sense in the library, you might be putting your books in it. Makes sense in the grocery store, you might be putting the eggs in it. A backpack in a restaurant, what’s that there for, right? Now who knows, maybe he’s going to school after, maybe he just has a backpack. It’s just a backpack but when it’s out of place, out of place for what I consider ought to be normal, I’m reacting already and I haven’t even thought about the fact that I’m reacting.

Laryssa

Right. Hypervigilance for you is constantly being aware of every potential threat or risk.

Brian

Every car can hit, every dog will bite, every bag will explode, every knife is in a hand somewhere. Then there are times where that just doesn’t happen. I think that’s one of the things we wanted to get into is not just hypervigilance but snow plowing. Snow plowing, it’s a term a lot of us use. When you get used to my hypervigilance so much that you might actually start protecting for it more than I do. Now, you’re moving those threats out of the way. You’re giving someone a scowl when they sit in the chair that you know I’m probably going to want. That’s not easy either. We wind up in this tricky spot where the best answer is to sit on our couch and do nothing.

Laryssa

I think just to delve into that snow plowing a little bit more, you and I have talked about it quite a bit about the phenomenon of, like you said, Family members clearing the path, so to speak, and trying to anticipate every potential trigger so that our loved ones, the Veteran, won’t be upset, won’t have to be hyper aroused or hypervigilant, won’t get triggered for a number of reasons. Number one, it’s hard watching someone you love in that heightened sense of discomfort. They’re even in a different mindset.

It’s tough to watch. We want to minimize that. The other factor is that it’s not always fun. Whether you’re going to a Family gathering or trying to go to a movie theater or an art gallery, for that matter, it impacts the dynamic of the event, of the experience, to the point that I’m going to share for me, I’m gun shy about going to a movie theater. We gave it a crack a few times, didn’t go so well. I’m gun shy now, because that caused me a lot of anxiety in that time.

I think that’s the reason why a lot of Family members do that snow plowing. As you were saying, maybe sometimes it’s overkill, because you or my husband may be having a great day, as a matter of fact, and they’re looking forward to that concert. Now, I’m already in that mindset that this is going to go south and this and this is going to happen.

Brian

You learn what the triggers are, but you don’t necessarily learn the context and how they’re going to show up or not. Yet, since they’re in my head, they seem as obvious to me as anything. I also think that training plays a huge aspect in this. We don’t train you to think about every single thing that’s happening. We train you to, like when you touch the hot stove and you pull your hand away and you don’t even feel the heat yet, the burn kicks in later.

We want you laying on the ground after the first bullet, right? We want you seeing every car before it actually cuts into your convoy and separates you. To get a little nerdy, army nerdy on the context here is if you think like an enemy, an enemy is not trying to find our ground troops, our infantry armor and engineers, they’re trying to go around that and find our soft spots. They’re trying to find our support, our logisticians. What’s the Family version of that? Is someone coming for me or is he going for the soft underbelly of my Family, my kids?

Laryssa

Let’s talk about that a little bit because in working through this in my house, my spouse has referred to me as a liability. Initially that annoyed me because like I said, I like to think I’m pretty independent and can take care of myself. To me, liability equals weak and I don’t want to be seen that way.

Brian

The truth is he probably sees you as the prize.

Laryssa

Right, so he’s trying to protect the thing that is most dear to him because yes, that makes sense when you explain it that way.

Brian

I think that’s it. In a lot of ways, especially in an area where people don’t perceive threat, they don’t really appreciate us being overbearing, overprotective, like we’re in charge, because that’s not how things come across well. What we generally do is we just sit there silent about it but we’re still doing what we’re doing. When we were preparing for this, I was telling you and some of the others we work with the situation where about a week or so ago, I wound up in the same pub twice and in fact, sitting at the same table and completely different scenarios.

One, meeting my buddy Troy where we’d served together and then he’d also served in another federal agency for a while. He’s as tactically sound as they come and he was already in there. I walk in, go to the table that everyone like me would want and I just start giggling because he was already in the chair that I wanted to take. I sat down with my back to the door and I felt no problems at all. Just two dudes hanging out because he’s there, because he would look out for me and no problem was going to happen and nothing happened, but you don’t prepare for risks by going by what’s going to happen.

You are the eternal pessimist. Everything is about how bad can it go and I better have a mitigation strategy for that but I don’t need one because Troy’s eyes are there. No problems, had a great time. I was in there another time that week meeting a distant acquaintance and then someone that was traveling with them that I didn’t know. This is not the same scenario. This is me asking this new person, “Hey, get out of that seat please, I need it.”

This is me coming up with a bullshit story as to why I need it, which is my back hurts. It does, but I don’t need that chair because of my back. This person I don’t know from Adam, like really I’m going to start telling you that I have TBI and post-traumatic stress disorder and because of that I need to sit there scanning the door. Who wants to eat with that weirdo? I lied to them and told them that my back hurts and let’s change chairs.

Laryssa

It sounds like really uncomfortable.

Brian

Yes, it’s rude, but life’s rude.

Laryssa

I think it seems like sometimes for a Veteran or someone who’s experienced trauma for that matter, I think a lot of people who have experienced trauma are hypervigilant because they don’t want stuff to happen again, but that sometimes it’s uncomfortable and there’s no win. One of the things that comes to my mind is my husband, he would be Christmas shopping with his daughters, they were both teenagers.

Christmas shopping, the mall is frantic, busiest time of year, it’s loud, lots of things going on. For him to be in the mall with the girls was extremely uncomfortable, especially because they wanted to split up and get tasks done kind of thing or shopping done. The alternative was that he did not go in the mall and sat in the parking lot and let them go in unaccompanied and not be able to keep an eye on things and help them out if they needed it.

There’s no win in that situation for the Veteran. On the flip side, the girls knowing that it’s difficult for their dad in either situation, now something that Christmas shopping, they might want to find the perfect gift for their friends and maybe they want to go to 10 different stores. All that plays a part on them and their experience. In a way, sometimes Family members can become hypervigilant to their loved one’s hypervigilance. It’s almost like this vicious circle.

Brian

Yes, and I find sometimes that when someone brings up just a normal aspect of life that they’d like to try, “Can we just go to the drive-through dad?” What’s going through my mind is, “Do you have any idea what you just asked me to do?” We talked about that earlier over lunch, and so let’s walk through that. You want me to go up to a window where I can only see the head and shoulders of the person back there, but they can see everything into the car because they’re in an elevated position over me?

You can throw a grenade down, it’s harder to throw it up. You want me to be in this line that I don’t control, where there’s a car trapping me to the front and a car trapping me to the back, and there’s this brick wall, and the guy in the A&W hat sticking his head out there trying to talk to me. You want me to be in this area where I feel canalized, like my vehicle has been moved towards a wall. What’s in that wall that’s going to try to hit me? By the way, lots of mines and IEDs are in walls, not in the ground.

For people like me, when they look to the right and they see there’s a couple of just bushes and just a small little scrub tree line and maybe a curb that might hurt the car a bit when I drive over it, trust me, I’m considering driving over it. When someone says, “Dad, can’t we just go to the drive-through?” No. You’re going to take my credit card, I’m going to park, I’m going to park where I can see you. That means through the windows.

If I can’t see you when you get in there, I might even high beam it a little bit to see if I can see through that, and you’re going to grab your stuff and get straight out and hop back in the vehicle. That’s not a fun time for my kids. We haven’t done a drive-through in almost 10 years now for exactly that reason. What I learned a long time ago was I’d never told them the reason. They’re feeling they’ve done something wrong. They’ve pissed off Dad. “What did I do? Can we never have McDonald’s again, Dad?” No, that’s not it. What I never told them, even to this day, is I feel like I’m going to blow up sitting in the drive-through lane.

Laryssa

How do you explain that to your kids? It’s so hard. Without explaining it, I have mentioned it a number of times on the podcast that I did peer support before, and I had peers tell me that they would observe their children picking up those behaviors and not even realizing why. Maybe your kids nowadays just don’t go through a drive-through and don’t even realize that they’ve been conditioned to that.

Brian

See, they don’t do that, but what they do is whenever they have to wake me up, since my oldest was like five and the youngest was three, they were trained by their mom that you have to wake up Dad by touching his foot, and you have to be like at the full arms extent to do it, because he’s going to try to kick you. “Mom, why does Dad want to kick us?” “He doesn’t, but he could be dreaming about a bad place right now, and he doesn’t know who you are for a couple seconds.”

Five and three-year-olds know how to wake up Dad from bad nightmares, but mine do. I do wonder, because I have explained that one to them, but I wonder what those years are like for them thinking like, “Does everyone wake up Dad that way? Is this what all dads are like?”

Laryssa

How do you manage hypervigilance? Do you live with it? Do you learn how to manage it? Is it less now than it used to be?

Brian

When I know before I’m heading out that it’s just not a good idea, I’ve learned that it’s not a good idea, that if you’re already reacting and you haven’t left the house yet, there’s one way that’s going to go, and it ain’t good. I’ve had to build up the tolerance amongst my peers that, please keep inviting me because I do want to go, but I’m going to bail a lot. That’s actually one of the parts of hypervigilance that I hate the most. I’m a pretty social person. I want to go to the outings. I want to see you all, but I don’t go a lot. I’m better at it now.

That’s one of the strategies, is to let people know what you’re going through so they’re not misinterpreting you saying no or a last-minute no as don’t care, go away, not interested. No, it’s not that at all. In fact, my medicine is people. Seeing my friends matters and makes me better, but I do have to cancel, and I just need them to know why. Also, yes, you don’t bite off what you can’t chew, and there are times where I’d like to, but it’s just not working today. I think the question is, in a lot of ways, how do you get through the things that you have to do? you do have to buy the food eventually. How do you go to the work gatherings, the forced fun?

Laryssa

It’s bringing things to mind for me. I know every Family looks different. We don’t all come from nuclear Families, but that’s the example I’m going to make, whether it’s your life partner, your spouse, whatever the case is. We talked about letting your peers know you can’t always go. Maybe there’s conversations within Family units too. You have an outing planned with the kids.

You’re all packed up, the car is ready to go, and you, Brian, or whoever, just can’t do it today. I think it’s important to have conversations beforehand to say, “Okay, if it gets to the 11th hour and I’m not in the frame of mind to go, you guys go ahead and enjoy yourselves because it’s something that everyone’s been looking forward to.” I think you need to have those conversations and strategies beforehand and give permission to the rest of the Family unit to go without feeling guilt. The Veteran doesn’t feel guilt knowing this is just not the day for it.

I think also strategies, you’re talking about shopping, not as much now, but before my spouse does not like Walmart, sorry Walmart, but it’s a great one-stop shop. We come to develop a plan that maybe he goes to get Starbucks, a cup of coffee and fill up the vehicle with gas while I’m in doing things. We’re still splitting tasks, but he’s not having to put himself in a position where he’s feeling awfully uncomfortable. Just managing those expectations beforehand, I think, can mitigate a lot of frustration for folks.

Brian

One thing that’s common with me in the world of shopping and stuff is you mentioned one store, I would say this, whenever there’s a bargain store or a massive sale, there’s a hunting nature about the people that are there. There’s an aggression to them that I can’t be around. For me, it’s not necessarily what store it is, but you will not see me ever in a Black Friday shopping spree. I’ve learned that the hard way.

I don’t know how to describe it any better, but just, you know the frenzy that people are in before Christmas, it’s that aggression about them that they’re in the place and they’re barreling through it. It mimics things I don’t want to be around. I’ve learned that. I think as well, when you talk about couples, can we get a list of three or four places that you like that are low triggering for your husband?

There aren’t going to be too many places that present no problems, but maybe just a list of this isn’t our favorite place to go, but it’s good enough on both accounts. The small mom-pa restaurants down the path by the lake are generally going to go better than the very busy post-Sunday brunch style, right? Again, it’s the busyness. It’s that people possessed by other thoughts and they’re really moving aggressively, that throws me.

Laryssa

You and I talked about something before, and I want to get your take on it, that even when I’m not with my spouse, we do a lot of travel. Sometimes I’m on my own. I find when I’m by myself and I go to a restaurant, I’m sitting in the seat that he would probably pick. I’m sitting with my back to the wall. I want to see the entrance and exit. I am aware of people who are around me. When I’m walking in a community, I’m pretty hyper-alert. I call it situational awareness. Is there someone behind me? To say that I’m taking on some of those behaviors, I have not served. Thankfully, I’ve not experienced trauma in that way.

Brian

Recruiting center is right around the corner. If you’re already good at that, you might have a leg up.

Laryssa

Is that something as I’ve disclosed some of my experiences to you before about how I experience hypervigilance, I guess I’m going to say secondary or transmitted hypervigilance in that way. What’s your take on that when you think about how Families are experiencing that? Is it something that you ever thought about before? You and I came into this work together and you’ve been learning more about the Family side of things.

Brian

Yes, absolutely. I think for all of us in this role, you’re probably learning some stuff about your spouses through us because we’re probably going to talk about it in a different form of candor than you might have heard of at home. The same is true for us. It’s the knowing and understanding. I know what a spouse goes through, but I don’t get it because I’m never going to have that experience until you actually live through it. Where I see it most is in my kids.

I wonder sometimes where I feel bad about it is, now am I training the next generation of hypervigilance over reactors? Am I affecting their ability to socialize? Because old habits die hard. They have habits that I’ve put into them that are good. They’ve got habits I put into them that are bad.

Laryssa

I was going to ask you, is there an element of “sorry, not sorry?” Because now your children might be more aware of things around them. They’re less likely to be in —

Brian

I’m not apologizing, by the way. I think they’re safer than the kid next door. If that makes them a little odd and makes them a little more like me, I happen to think I’m not a complete failure, and I think a lot of it is you’re right. I have had effect on them. I wouldn’t say it’s bad because the world does have people that will because you harm and I think a little bit of pessimism or a lot of it is actually quite healthy.

Laryssa

Interesting. Just thinking about people who maybe haven’t realized that they are experiencing hypervigilance in some ways, maybe there’s a Veteran going now that you mentioned it, I’m noticing my Family or maybe Family members saying now that you mentioned it. How do Families, friendships, whatever, come to terms with it because it can impact and maybe sometimes be barriers in friendships or relationships? How do we get these two sides of the experience be able to come together and learn how to live with hypervigilance? I don’t know, what would you put on the table?

Brian

My sense of it is that do your best to understand that it’s experiential. It’s not about the people at the table, it’s about what the guy at the table or the woman at the table went through a long time ago that has residual effect. When we talk about systemic problems in the world of government and politics, we’re talking about what happened a while ago that still has effect now. Look at hypervigilance the same way. You aren’t bothering me, but we are in an unfamiliar studio right now. I’m reacting to it, not you. By the way, guess who’s got the seat facing the door?

You’re not new to this. I think what’s very true is that our Families are going to mimic these behaviors whether they intend to do them or not. They’re also going to do them thinking out what they’re doing in our own best interest, where I think it might get risky is the snow plow. You might even do it more than I need you to and that’s a discussion I think is really hard to have because it’s a success that the other people in your life are like, “Okay, Brian needs this,” but I don’t need it all the time. I’m not reacting everywhere and that’s the conversation that you’re going to have to have repeatedly.

Laryssa

I think so and I think it’s important for Families not to take ownership of the other person’s condition in some certain ways or take responsibility for it and that’s really hard to do. I’m going to just share another quick anecdote. My spouse and I went shopping again. Maybe this is the problem. I’m identifying shopping a lot here but we went to an outlet mall, which was incredibly busy. Wanted to pick up a couple t-shirts for the kids.

Brian

I hate it already.

Laryssa

There you go. Yes, the concourse was loud. There was disco music pounding in. Babies crying and so we decided that I was just going to go in the store. My spouse was going to wait outside.

Brian

Good strategy.

Laryssa

Right. Thinking check, this is good. Things took longer than I imagined. It was the frenzy you talked about. The person in front of me bought a hundred items so I’m getting frantic standing in the line because I have to wait my turn and I’m anticipating how my loved one is reacting outside. At one point he came in and just did like a scan of the store, probably to see what I was doing. What’s going on and stepped out again and that sent me over the edge. By the time I got out with the t-shirts, which I felt I had to come out with because not would have been failing the mission and it all would have been for nothing.

He just asked me if I got everything I needed and I burst into tears and I said, “I can’t handle your anxiety anymore.” He was managing his symptoms. He was fine. He was using all the strategies he’s been working on with his clinician, but I was taking responsibility and accountability. To that level of anxiety and so for me, that’s something that I needed to work on as a Family member. Sure I can support my loved one, but it’s not my responsibility to snowplow to that degree

Brian

You’re right, but it’s tricky. I am yet to figure out what the perfect answer is for that. I think what can help is when your doctor says to you, “Hey, do you want to bring your spouse for a session someday?” This is a real good thing to table because the answer is no. I don’t want to bring anyone else into these sessions where I’m baring my soul if you want to call it that. I realize it’s helpful and necessary, but no, I don’t want to do that.

If you want to figure out something that you can bring up that will actually help you get some level setting here, that is a good thing to put in front of the doctor for an hour. How do we handle, how do we prepare and how do we negotiate our way through something that ought to be fun, part of me wants to go, the other part of me doesn’t want to go and she doesn’t know which one she’s dealing with right now. That would be what I would do. The next time you find yourself, both of you sitting on the couch, this is a good thing to try to work through.

Laryssa

I think so. Come up with some strategies. Maybe next time I’m sitting in that chair then, Brian.

Brian

No.

Laryssa

I think that was some good conversation. I hope it prompted some thought for folks. I know there might be some things that I need to take home and it’s always evolving, it was good to chat with you again.

Brian

Hypervigilance, the right vigilance, just not for the place you’re in. This has been another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If someone who might relate to what we’ve shared or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas and subjects we plan to dive into, but you, the listener, have probably experienced or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at @atlasveteransca on most platforms, so please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message or leave a review on this episode and let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.