MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 37 — THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM: HOW CAN PTSD IMPACT VETERANS AND THEIR FAMILIES?

Brian McKenna

You found our podcast. We are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families, and specifically mental health. What goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals. We’re talking to you about living with it and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa Lamrock

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military. Proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and y community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families.

[music]

All right. We’re back. Another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission. We’re going to talk about PTSD, the big one, the big kahuna here. Sometimes when you’ve got this big issue, it’s like the elephant in the room. People are talking around it all the time. What I find with PTSD is, I think sometimes we get so interested in the other aspects of mental health that we actually forget to talk about this one.

This is the big issue. Going all the way back to the Vietnam era, even today people will say the ailment, the wound that’s most associated with that conflict is PTSD. We think we know it, but there’s so much more to know. Especially as the patient and the people around it, there’s a lot to know.

Laryssa

I think for better, for worse, a lot of people associate Veterans and military with PTSD because of popular culture and things like that. I think it is something that is very commonly associated with Veterans. Even though I think, what are the stats, Brian? Only around 20% of Veterans are diagnosed with PTSD?

Brian

Yes. We could look at that number any way that we want. We could always say, “How many more are that haven’t come forward?” At the end of the day, you get treated for the broken leg when you come forward with the broken leg. I think when we first started in these roles, one of the things that was presented to us was, it’s not just PTSD. We’ve got to look at all these other things.

It’s like, yes, we do, but we can never forget that this is the anchor issue here. While you might have a case where maybe the scientific and the academic world knows a lot of things about this ailment, the guy that’s sitting there and has, the doctor scribbling out, you have this acronym, probably an acronym you’ve wanted to not have. You have that. It’s now assigned to you.

Then you’re going to go home and you’re going to tell somebody that really matters to you and now it’s happening to them too, and now this thing, this four-letter that you’ve been trying to not have, is now something that that Family now has as a collective group dealing with going forward. It’s a pretty intimidating moment. One of the things that stands out to me, there was no surprise. The doctor wasn’t telling me anything that I didn’t know.

One of the hardest points for me was getting over the fact that that anonymity didn’t exist for Brian anymore. Any other thing going on with me, I had a gut issue. No one can tell when I walk by. In our scenario, when you’re hanging out in the MIR, a medical inspection room, in a base that did not have a psychologist, the psych comes in from another community every Tuesday.

It wasn’t really all that shocking that everybody lined up waiting to see the doctor from out of town on Tuesday while we weren’t there for ankles and knees and shoulders. You didn’t have to come out to anyone and go, “Yes, I’m Warrant Officer McKenna, and I have PTSD,” but anyone walking by saw you there knows exactly what’s going on. The moment that I decided to just surrender anonymity and accept that this was going to get out, I think I got a little bit better then.

Laryssa

I think that’s the first step. A few different things that have come to mind for me as you were chatting. When we were preparing for this episode, we were talking about the fact, exactly what you were saying, that for maybe somebody listening right now, today’s their day one with PTSD, or their day 15 with PTSD. There’s a lot that’s unknown to them, even though I think the military — there’s a lot more resources for Veterans to learn about PTSD, doesn’t make it all knowing.

For somebody right now, it’s their day one. Just as you’re chatting, that’s the first step. We see a lot of brochures that it’s like, step two, ask for help. There’s a lot of steps before that. One of them is admitting to yourself probably. We talked about this earlier, not just in your head, but there comes a point you have to say it out loud. That must be really scary for people because once you say it out loud, you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Brian

Yes, out loud it’s different. In your own head, being honest for the first time of like, “This isn’t how I’m used to feeling. This isn’t how I’m used to reacting. That thing that took me from zero to 10 used to get me to a two. Why? What’s going on?” That’s all an internal discussion and it’s difficult. Even if you’re in the room on your own and saying it in the same voice I’m speaking to you now, to hear it coming back through your own ears is different.

Then to actually have someone else in the room that you care about, I’m not talking about a conversation that you have in passing, but someone that you care about and is going to be in your life tomorrow and down the road, when you speak to that person, you go, “Look, I’m dealing with something here.” That’s what you can’t put back in the tube.

Laryssa

I think probably the person you’re disclosing it to probably already knows you’re dealing with something here, or they may know that there’s something happening, whether it’s within the person you served, or a lot of Family members, I think, turn it inward and think, “There must be something wrong with me, but there’s something going on here and I can’t put my finger on what it is.” The first step to everybody getting to a place where they can, I don’t know, just moving forward in their wellness, I suppose you could say, is that conversation.

Brian

For you, when you’re sat down and someone says to you, “Look, I have PTSD,” is there some relief for you? You’re like, “We’re finally talking about this here.”

Laryssa

I think from my own experience, it was a really long time. You remember there was that phase there — there was actually a statistic that was put out that showed that typically for Canadian military members, the time from when they sustained their injury or traumatic event to when they were finally diagnosed was eight to 10 years. Do you remember that stat?

I think it’s way shorter roadway there, but I was in that era of that statistic. There were a lot of years that, like I said, there was something I knew was wrong, wrong with the marriage, wrong with me, with something, and I turned towards myself. I actually went through a lot of depression screening forms. I had physical examinations done, all sorts of things, because it must have been Laryssa. At that final point years later, there’s a lot of water under the bridge at that point.

Yes, there was some relief going, “Now that we can identify what it is, we can work together on the solution.” I’m going to admit, though, there was also some resentment. There was also some anger, maybe some confusion, because back in the day, no one educated military members, let alone Families, on PTSD, operational stress injury, what are their behaviors, what are the things you should look for, how do you support them? There was probably a lot of flood of emotions.

Brian

It’s almost a war story time here, so take a knee, helmet’s on. One of the first realization points for me, I was driving back home after I’d come home from being overseas for too long. I had to pull over, change a tire, and it’s an area with a very narrow shoulder on the highway. It was not the most enjoyable feeling having to put your back to the noise, back to the traffic, but hammer it through, get it done, no problem.

Where I was going, where I wound up going to, was my wife had asked me to take this picture to the store that does all those picture framing and fancy stuff, and just get it sorted. I go there, and the woman asked me these questions, like, what kind of matting do you want, or does this match that? I was expecting to walk in, like I’m pointing at a head of lettuce, and like I want a head of lettuce. I didn’t know there were decisions involved in framing a photo. I couldn’t answer any of her questions.

I gathered the stuff up, went back to the car, and had a full-on rage moment in there. What I realized there, because those two events had happened to me, I was very well designed to deal with that, blown tire on the side of the road, which was actually a threat to me. That was dangerous. I was perfectly wired for that. There was no part of my brain that knew how to handle this picture, sorting out this thing. It bothered the heck out of me. It bothers me to this day. The only thing I probably handled okay was I didn’t have that reaction in the store. I gathered my stuff and got out of there in time, but my blood was boiling. I was frustrated. I was disappointed in myself. This is the simplest of tasks, and I knew I was going to go home to someone that I’d expect this minor task to get done. She was off doing the kid stuff, the complicated things. I was just handling this minor thing and couldn’t even accomplish it.

That was a lot of it. For me, it was like I had to admit that something was different because I wouldn’t have cared about the picture before. I still don’t care today. I would have been able to answer a question of 8.5 by 11 or whatever the thing was. I was no longer able, at that point, to handle day-to-day things in the house, things related to the Family, but I was totally comfortable in what should be the scary environment.

Laryssa

I’m trying to just understand how that must have felt for you. That must have been pretty scary in some ways, recognizing I’m losing my shit over a frame here, so what’s going on with me? In this conversation today, one of the things that I’m hoping to explore, to get to is what do we wish we knew before the injury?

What do you wish someone would have told you, maybe not in the car when you’re having the rage moment, but after you’ve calmed down on the day after, what do you wish someone would have told you about what was to come for you?

Brian

Certainly what helps me now is that I’ve been able to do most of what I would call the Brian activities of daily living. There’s this actual medical assessment of that. I’m not talking about that. Like what puts a smile on my face? Could I still play in the pipe band? Could I still go to events that my kids were involved in at school? At the time, no, but now I can, and with adaptations.

I’m not trying to give people this rosy view like, “It’s all going to come around and be fine.” What I’m trying to let people know, though, is now– There was a period of my life, eight years, where I had a service dog, and that’s the only way I could get out of the house. I’m here with you now, which is proof that I could fly on a plane now. I can move about on my own, not always, and I have to back out of a lot of stuff.

To answer your question is, what do I wish I’d have known then? It would be that with adaptations and with work, and with actually doing the programming you get put on, not just showing up. It’s more than just going and meeting the timings. You’ve got to go and actually steal the nuggets out of these programs that can help you out. With that, you can regain a lot of what used to put a smile on your face.

Laryssa

I think for, well, I’m not just going to say for Veterans because I’ve been to therapy as well. Just showing up isn’t always enough. You have to be willing to go to some pretty scary places. It can feel overwhelming. You have to be prepared for that, but the more that you put into it, the more likely you’re going to get something out of it and make advancements.

I think that’s something that I would share with people is, like you’ve said, you’ve got to do the work. There’s no magic solution to mental health injuries, whether it’s medication or whether it’s alternative treatments or whether it’s just talk therapy. There’s a lot that needs to go into it. You need to be willing to put that investment, I think, in yourself.

Brian

I also, when I first got into therapy, actually going to see the doc, I got real frustrated because they would ask questions about childhood and all this stuff. My view was like, “Could you skip to the part that I’m here for?” I’ve gone away. Some tough things happened. I’m having a hard time adapting to that. I need you to fast forward to that point so I can snap my fingers, get it done, and I can get back to work.”

I did have to drop that. I had to learn to drop that because it’s just like studying the mechanism of injury of how did the person wind up on the ground. There’s more to it. Well, they fell from this height. This type of doctor is trying to establish who joined the military when you walked into that office. Was this a person that already had a problem? Were you searching for a team? Who were you back in the day when you were “fine?” What were we dealing with then?

I’m not going to try pathologize it any more than that, but I will say it took me a while to realize that this doctor is probably going to have to look at the totality of Brian, the neighbor, the father, the dad, the guy that you hopefully like being around, and this soldier aspect of him. All those different aspects of this guy, the doc has to find out about. I was looking for a fast forward button. Just get to the point where we talk about these events and then get me better.

Laryssa

I think for me as we’re talking about what we wish someone had told us, for me as a Family member, I appreciate honesty. I appreciate people being direct. It would have been helpful for someone who maybe had been through the process to say to me, “This is going to be freaking hard. If you don’t take care of yourself in this, there’s going to be a shell of a person left. This is not yours to fix.”

I think that’s something for me, I was thinking if I loved this person enough, if I worked hard enough, if I educated myself on PTSD enough, if I did something enough that I can fix this person that I care about, and maybe that might have saved me a lot of “backbreaking” work that I needed to understand that it was his recovery and there were things that I needed to address within myself, but I couldn’t fix him.

Brian

A lot of it too, like when we’re dealing with spouses and kids, we actually don’t know the answer to your questions. I’m still now discovering things that bother me about events of the past. I’m still watching them morph too, like when things change in the news, when stuff’s happening around the world. That changes how I view my involvement in things in the past.

I can’t answer that until those changes happen, and I can’t answer that until those realizations happen. Quite often, people ask you, “How are you,” or, “What can I do to help you?” They’re loving questions, but we don’t know what to tell you.

Laryssa

I think we receive that with frustration when the person’s like, “I don’t know. “What’s the matter? I don’t know.” What do you mean you don’t know? I think that can lead us to more probing and frustration and things like that. As you’re saying, you might truly not know. That can be tough.

Brian

I tell you one thing, though, with PTSD, I am certainly thankful that I’m dealing with it in the era that I have been dealing with it. Because I remember when we did first get the speeches from the chain of command about mental health, but I remember how it was actually handled. It was like, “Thank God that briefing’s over. Now, let’s get back to the way we’re doing business.”

People were ostracized. It wasn’t good. I can tell you that’s not what I had to walk through. There were certainly tough moments. I did lose some friends over it. I remember those conversations when other guys had put up their hand years ago, and you could hear the whispers in the back room of, “Oh, is he faking? Is he trying to get this benefit?” That kind of thing.

Laryssa

“Lingerer” was the word.

Brian

Absolutely. That was happening. I can say I then overheard other conversations later on as the military was getting smarter and better at handling this. It was conversations of people saying, “Oh, that guy’s pretty brave to put up his hand.”

Laryssa

What’s coming to mind for me is I think there was a period of time that there was stigma within the military for coming forward with mental health. Then once that started being addressed by the chain of command, bring it out, talking about mental health and things like that. What you might be describing a little bit too is self-stigmatizing.

Brian

Oh, yes. Nowadays, you actually hear the other extreme. You’ll hear some people say, “How could you ever do these things and not have a problem?” I look at it this way is if you went on a six-month backpacking trip to Spain and had a great time, I’d expect you to come back different, learn something, new perspectives.

If you’d gone, then we’ll drop the Spain part and go to some awful part of the world where everything’s falling apart to the point it makes you challenge like, “Are we even good? Do we know what we’re doing here? How do humans do this to each other?” You come back with that. Those are hard things to peace out and just to go back, sip in your wine and go back to living your life.

Those are some pretty tough things to be struggling through. Those are just questions. Then add the fact that you don’t know how to predict your own emotions anymore. It’s a lot. I would say things are getting better and it’s no longer the death sentence of someone’s career. That’s not to say everyone gets to stay. It’s not true. There’s lots of people that are functioning in the forces,

that have a PTSD diagnosis. There’s a lot that have moved on and are still doing something in the Veteran world with a PTSD diagnosis. I did lose some friends through it, and I was probably going to lose them anyhow, some way, somehow. That was something that was a little bit of a struggle. You know what? I need to be surrounded with positive people. I need to be surrounded by people that have dropped dinosaur thinking, and this made that happen.

Laryssa

Maybe the flip side of that, did you gain friends through it?

Brian

I certainly gained experiences. We’d never meet. We’d never work together. This organization wouldn’t exist. I don’t know where I’d be, but it wouldn’t be here. All those things are true, not just from having a mental health issue, but speaking up and doing something about it. I would be okay without this problem, and I’m okay with it.

Laryssa

Exactly. I think that’s an important message. I’m going to try this. What do you wish you would have known about treatment?

Brian

I still struggle with treatment. What I mean by that is whatever someone offers me the next thing, I’m hesitant. I look at it as that stew that might have one too many ingredients in it. What I wish I knew about treatment, though, was that you’re the one making the stew. That when these doctors tell you, “You’re transitioning here. This is no longer you’re getting orders on how you’re going to do this,” because that’s military medicine.

I didn’t believe when people said stuff to me like, “We’re going to co-facilitate this healthcare journey, Brian. I’m going to explain things to you, but you’re in charge. I did not believe the words they were saying.” I wish I’d have trusted that more, but I’m glad I had the skepticism that I did of the different programs because it made me look at them.

Laryssa

Of course. Then you were better informed to make a decision.

Brian

Yes. It’s like, I need Veterans to tell me that this is a Veteran-centric program. Not some guy who’s trying to sell it to Veterans Affairs calls it a Veteran-centric program. Not some doctor thinks they’ve done their research when their patients come through and say that doctor has a clue. I have that skepticism. I have it today, and I want to keep it because it’s done me well. I wish I actually bought into that hand on the steering wheel they told me I had because I didn’t believe them.

Laryssa

I think from my perspective as a Family member, what I wish I would have known about treatment beforehand was that it wasn’t going to be the solution, that your loved one doesn’t just go to an inpatient treatment and come back fixed, that this one fixed period of time, you’re going to address the issue, and then it’s never going to be a problem again in your life.

I know there’s different trains of thought on it, on whether PTSD can be cured or not. I think for me, at the beginning, I thought, “Going to go to treatment, going to be cured, and we’re going to return back to normal after treatment.” That’s something that I wish that I would have known about treatment, was that it’s going to be a long and ongoing process for both of us.

Brian

With you having seen this in your Family, and I’m talking specifically on PTSD here, what was the thing in your gut when the kid comes up and says, “Mom, I’m thinking of joining the Canadian Forces?”

Laryssa

Absolute terror, followed by then pride and things like that. This is something you and I have talked about before. I think for both of us overall, our experience living in the military community, you having been in service, me supporting someone, has been overall really great experiences in our lives. Of course, when my child comes to me and says they want to join the military, there’s that, knowing that it can be a really positive experience.

I am full well aware of the risks that brings with it, and as a parent, that terrifies me. Now, I did have that conversation with my child to say, “Because of this, I know the risks that you’re putting yourself in.” His response to me was, “Mom, of all Families, maybe I’m better prepared because we talk about mental health, because I’ve supported a father and a stepfather through PTSD, because I know the resources available to me, because I know I have to talk about it.”

He brought it back to me that way. I wish we knew enough to know how to inoculate people, and we haven’t got there yet. He reassured me with what he did present on the table that maybe he knows how to address it if it’s to come up.

Brian

The truth that I’ve told you personally before is, 19 years, a time of my life, five days of them I would erase if I could go back and make that perfect. How many people get to say that they loved what they do? It’s one of the things that I try and educate the doctor and clinician world about PTSD in Veterans is– I don’t teach them about ailments. I teach them about people whenever I get the chance to. I do.

I want them to know that we did not get fooled at the recruiting center, and the brochure wasn’t written in a foreign language. We wanted everything that was in there. The harder it looked, the more we wanted it. In fact, you’re finding people today that their problem isn’t what happened to them when they’re a diver. It’s that they don’t get to be a diver anymore. They don’t get to jump out of planes anymore. They don’t get to do the cool thing.

They’re struggling potentially as much with the fact they don’t get to live that life anymore than what happened to them during it. Of course, there’s different degrees of that. That’s one of the things that I hope I can help the medical world understand is, don’t feel sorry for me because we’re not going to get along if you think that I stumbled upon that because I couldn’t find another job. There were other jobs, I picked that one. I couldn’t get enough of it. Veteran, not victim.

That’s something I want to hammer home. Then one thing, as you and I are talking our way through PTSD, I talked to you about accepting that anonymity is not really going to work. At least it wasn’t going to work for Brian. I had to come to terms with that. The other big struggle, how do you explain to your kids that there’s something wrong with Dad?

Now, we’ve talked about the body with the kids. We’ve talked about all the stuff. This is the central nervous system. This is the programming machine of the brain. This is how the body works. I remember explaining to them once like, “People point to their hearts, but I love you up here. The love is in the brain. The way I look after you is because I know how to do it.” That’s the part of me that there’s a problem with.

What is the five-year-old and seven-year-old age-appropriate way to explain that Dad’s internal computer has a problem with it? Don’t worry. You’ll be fine. He’s not going to get mad at you. He’s not going to rage at you, but he’s got to go away for a while. I still don’t know how to do it.

Laryssa

I think it’s hard to have that adult-to-adult conversation, and like you say, “How do you put it into terms for a child? I do think personally it’s important to have the conversation with your child. I think there’s a couple places you can go that can help guide you to how to start that conversation. What I’ve observed over my time with peer support and personally, is that if you don’t have the conversation with your kids, they’re pretty intuitive and they know what’s going on.

If you don’t give them the understanding, they’re going to create an understanding on their own, which could be wrong. Content warning here, I suppose, or language warning. If you don’t explain to your child why you’re being an asshole, they’re just going to think that you’re an asshole. They might see you angry or raging. I think an automatic response, not just for children, but for any human, is like, it must be something I did. Unless you have that conversation with them, they’re going to draw those conclusions on their own. I do think it’s important to have the conversation. Yes, and it’s important to have it at an age-appropriate level.

Going back to my theme, I’m weaving through it here today, is what do I wish I knew? I wish I would have had the tools to make sure I was having the right conversations with my kids. I think it freaks us out that we’re harming our kids. I personally felt a lot of guilt for my kids being brought up in a home with PTSD. Now that they’re adults and I look back, I think in a lot of ways, we turned it into an opportunity.

An opportunity to acknowledge and talk about mental health, an opportunity to acknowledge that anger is actually normal. It’s just what you do with that anger. It’s an opportunity to be able to mutually support each other. I think they’re pretty incredible human beings, maybe because of the experience they had in supporting someone with a mental health injury.

Brian

I think that’s how the whole experience of posttraumatic stress disorder wraps up for me. It’s like, maybe people out there do know almost everything about it. I challenge that, but say they’re right. The guy who just heard that today, who’s trying to figure out what do I tell my wife, how do I explain to my kids, he doesn’t know what he needs to know.

Maybe we’re not doing so much discovery, but we certainly got to do a lot more education. That’s been the struggle for me. It’s like, I still don’t know that answer. I work in this space, and if someone says, give me the resource to explain to my five-year-old how do I explain posttraumatic stress or addiction to them, I still struggle with it. It’s that guy. That’s the one we’ve got to help.

Laryssa

Absolutely. I’m curious about this too, and you’re really good at actually doing this in a lot of our conversations here. What’s one thing that you’re grateful for after the injury?

Brian

I think I’ve got a lot more awareness of what my limitations are. The whole world of the military indoctrination, that’s what it is. It’s indoctrination. We’re teaching you how to live a different way. It does have this break them down, build you up, break them down, build you up. At the end of every course, you should think that you can do the thing.

On day one, you should think that it’s impossible. In the next 30, 40 days, we’re going to get you there. Your life doesn’t pan out like that. You can’t run your life the way you run a platoon or run courses. At first, I certainly tried to make the things that triggered me go away and snowplow my own world. Then once I’d opened up to my Family, they tried to be the snowplow.

I haven’t been able to make the issues go away. I’m certainly more aware now when I’m at a two, when I’m at a six out of 10, and when Brian needs to stop because we are reaching the boiling point. Whereas before I had the problem, I had a grip of things. Then after, the things are still there. I have no grip. Now we’re at a 10. Those things still get under my skin.

When someone makes that noise behind me, like the waitress today who didn’t make any noise, and came up and put that sandwich clunk down on the table in front of me, and I jumped, it’s like I can’t make her not do that. I can’t expect a world where tables never have the sound of dishes hitting them, or people don’t bump into you. I knew then that maybe no more heavy conversations for the next 30 seconds. Let’s take a drink. Let’s get a grip. I’ve got a better grip over when I’m ramping up.

Laryssa

For me, it’s going to sound like I have a fruitful answer, but maybe it ties into posttraumatic growth. I know for some people who are– Like for the person that might be listening that is day one, that can feel really overwhelming when we’re like, “No, you’re going to come out better on the other end.” Take that with a grain of salt. We understand it’s going to be an overwhelming process.

There is potential for posttraumatic growth. I think I’ve been able to take my experiences as a Family member to continue to learn every single day, but take what I’ve learned so far to help other Family members, it’s provided me the opportunity of working in this environment. I’ve met pretty incredible and inspirational people. It challenges me, like I said, every single day for me to be better. Although it’s really hard, I’m also grateful for that.

Brian

When I hear the term “posttraumatic growth,” sometimes I feel people are trying to put lipstick on a pig, or get some new cool name for it. At the end of the day, when someone says, “There’s no D at the end of this PTS,” it’s like, “I’m not healthier by you changing words.” If for some people there’s progress in the words changing, or they think there’s a different acceptance for it, fine.

I’ve found just accepting that there’s something going on, and I need help, and you can call it whatever the heck you want, it can shorten down and you put some more letters at the end of it. There’s no change to Brian here. For me, it’s like I have to accept that things are different. I don’t belong kicking doors anymore. I don’t belong in front of a platoon of troops, taking them through something and looking them in the eye and say, “I got you,” because I know that that’s not what I can do right now.

I know that I can help soldiers in a completely different way. Maybe that’s what posttraumatic growth is. For me, though, it’s just I can reorientate the thing I like to do, which is help troops. I can’t do it in that door anymore. I’m doing it in this door.

Laryssa

I think that’s pretty incredible. Thanks for that candid conversation, Brian. I think it’s important we finally honed in on PTSD. I appreciated that it was from your and my perspective. Sometimes we love bringing in subject matter experts and guests, and sometimes it’s nice just to roll up our sleeves and have a conversation with the two of us.

Brian

I feel it’s a conversation that’s got back to basics to a degree because I’m very interested in traumatic brain injury. Trust me. I’m very interested in all these other things that are going on, but we can’t lose sight of this big connective issue here, which is posttraumatic stress disorder.

Laryssa

Exactly. That wraps up another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission. Recording here from Ottawa today, this time again, we’re in here for work at Pop Up Podcasting. I want to also thank Courtney Wright, who’s our internal producer. I’ll see you next time, I guess.

Brian

Take care.