MIND BEYOND THE MISSION EPISODE 38 — FOSTERING REMEMBRANCE THROUGH THE POWERFUL STORIES RESTING AT CANADA’S NATIONAL MILITARY CEMETERY WITH NICK MCCARTHY

Brian McKenna

You found our podcast. We are Mind Beyond the Mission. This is a podcast about Veterans and their Families, and specifically mental health, what goes on in our lives, what goes on in our heads. We’re not talking to you as doctors or professionals. We’re talking to you about living with it, and what it’s like. Brian McKenna, 19 years in the Canadian Forces. I’m joined by my partner, Laryssa Lamrock.

Laryssa Lamrock

Veteran Family member. I’m a proud military brat. My husband served in the military, proud military mom. We’re really excited about this podcast to delve into issues that are important to the Veteran and Family community.

Brian

Join us as we talk about mental health from the perspective of Veterans and their Families.

[music]

We’re back with another episode of Mind Beyond the Mission. We’re in studio in Ottawa, which is how I prefer to do things.

Laryssa

Yes.

Brian

We are caffeinated, which is —

Laryssa

Not fully. I’m just saying not fully, but we’ll get there.

Brian

Okay. The only coffee you have, I got you.

Laryssa

Yes. [chuckles] Thank you, Brian.

Brian

I want to take credit for whatever level of caffeination you’re at. We’re joined today by Nick McCarthy. Nick’s the gentleman that knows a lot about military history. He actually works with the folks at Beechwood. Beechwood being the National Cemetery of Canada. Up at Beechwood, not so far from where we’re at here, we joined him for a really emotional and moving event a couple years ago, where we got to see the National Military Cemetery of Canada.

It was eye-opening for me in a lot of ways, which we’re going to get into. I wanted to talk to Nick today, because Nick’s involved in so much more than just that cemetery. The conversation of connecting Canada to its military community is one I’ve wanted to have a long time. Welcome. Thanks for joining us today.

Nick McCarthy

Thanks for having me. It was a great event a few years back. That’s quite a tall ask for this podcast, so let’s see if we can get into it.

Brian

Well, you think — I use this phrase at work of what it’s like to come down the escalator. What I mean by that is, anyone who, you go touring France for six months, I expect you to be changed. You go to Afghanistan or any of the above, and then you come home. It can be a little bit of a shock to find Canada just doing what Canada does. For me, I felt disconnected from the people at the bottom of the escalator.

Those that were, just like me this morning, elbowing their way towards the Starbucks, trying to get to their flight. I found myself thinking, something to the effect of, “Do these guys know where we just were?” I think the answer to that in a lot of ways is, yes, Canada knows, but it could know more. We could maybe do a better job of connecting. What do you think about that?

Nick

I definitely agree. I think when it comes to actually understanding what happens in combat, actually understanding what goes on in military missions across the world, we tend to underestimate Canada’s importance. We look at what we’re doing in Europe right now, especially in the Latvian front, training in the Ukraine. We’re training. I think what most Canadians, they have a sense of appreciation, a sense of a duty of remembrance, but do they actually fully understand the complexities of war, and what our men and women go through every — from day-to-day? I’m not sure.

I think it’s getting better. I think people are starting to really understand Canada’s middle power as one of these great militaries, which we’ve always been. We had a great reputation after World War II. We continued that. We have troops that serve all around the world. There’s a reason we get asked to go bring troops and train people, and teach people the Canadian art of war.

Laryssa

I’m curious, just to set some groundwork. First, why is a Canadian national military cemetery important? Explain more, then, about the tie-in for history and commemoration, just as you were speaking to, and then we can get deeper into that. Why is a national military cemetery important? What makes it different? How does that then lean into your role as a historian?

Nick

I’ll start with Ottawa itself. Ottawa itself, when we were by town, we were very much a military outpost. You think Colonel By, the Army Corps of Engineers building. From our very moments of our creation, Ottawa was meant to be a military installation. Even Parliament Hill was meant to be a star citadel, very much like Quebec City.

Brian

Yes, defendable position.

Nick

You can imagine from the mouth. Beechwood itself grows from this mentality. The first monument we had, we ever started with at Beechwood was a military monument Artillery. The artillery guys love the fact that the first military, and the oldest military monument in Ottawa is an artillery monument. I always get artillery people excited about that. When it comes to this slow evolution, we see Beechwood starting to have Family plots with military folk.

We start seeing a last post fund for those post-South Africa, post-World War I soldiers. There’s tragic stories in there, where the next of kin is the Minister of Defense. It’s a funeral home that no longer exists. There’s all these tragic stories within that, but at least they received a dignified burial. Then, you flash forward to World War II, we find ourselves building a commonwealth war grave cemetery, which makes sense because we’re training people from around the world to become pilots. We’re training people in the art of war here in Ottawa and around the community.

Then, we build a Veteran section for those who came back after the war, and who died of their service. Then, in 2001, they really decided to build something important. That’s where the National Military Cemetery of the Canadian Forces, that modern one, the long one that faces east, the sun rises over our headstones. It dries them out and makes sure that no soldier’s ever cold. It’s a very old tradition. It’s very much built as a regimental cemetery.

The importance of military cemeteries as a whole, be it regimental cemeteries in our community, be it the National Military Cemetery here in Ottawa, is that we need a place of honor. When you have people who come who have served all across the country, all across the world, they would have served a portion of their period here in Ottawa, without a doubt, maybe trained up in Petawawa, which is close enough, let’s say.

Brian

Or deployed out of Trenton.

Nick

Exactly. The whole idea is that you have a space where people are unified, but you also have a space where they can be remembered, they can be with people they’ve served with, but they can also be buried together in a way that is familiar, in a way that we’d have seen in battlefields before 1970. It’s very much an important place. Cemeteries themselves, they have a service, and the service is to act as a place of remembrance.

The French do it right. They have this term called le devoir de souvenir, the duty of remembrance. The difference with the French, they honor the death of the individual, not the service. That’s where our National Military Cemetery is quite different. We honor the service. It’s that dash, all those years that the individual served.

Brian

I learned something when I went up there. One of my questions to you as we were talking about doing this podcast was, how do we make the average Canadian just know that one piece more about their Canadian military community that they might not have? There I was walking Beechwood when Huff and I went up there to do the recce for that event. The CSIS cemetery is up there. That surprised me. I wasn’t expecting that.

The second I saw it, I thought, of course. Canada’s spies are going to be somewhere. This is CSIS. Of course, they’ll be up here. Of course, it makes sense that there’s Correctional Service Canada, and there’s RCMP, and some of these different things across the country. It makes sense, but I’d never thought about it until I seen it. I guess that’s my point. I found, as I went there to prepare for an event that was there to educate my staff, my colleagues, I was learning some stuff too about Canada.

Nick

I think that’s the joy. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been in the military, how long you’ve served, your level of history. There’s always stories to be told, and there’s always different moments that we can share. A couple of weeks ago, our sacred space was full. I gave a lecture on 200 years of military history at Beechwood. We had people who were in the militaries for the Order of St. George.

We had a whole bunch of people in the room, and even General Hillier was there, who has his spot at Beechwood as well. He turns to me, he’s like, “I didn’t know half of that.” He’s like, “I was CDS.” I think there’s so many stories. It’s not because we don’t learn it. It’s because we don’t retain it. To be taught history in a way that matters, is how we need to approach it.

The dates, we all have supercomputers in our pocket. We can Google the date. You can find out exactly. It’s the stories that matter. The individuals, it’s the regiments, it’s the groups, it’s understanding the implications of, let’s say, Operation Market Garden. Why was that operation so important? How did we play a role? We can take a look at that operation. We take a look at the liberation of Holland. We know the players. We know the people who signed.

Then, you can flash forward to Ottawa at the same period where we have a princess being born. Again, it’s all these moments. I think even as a youth, when I was being taught history, it was all about smacking those dates. It was telling you, “Those dates are what matters. This is what you’re going to test.” [crosstalk]

Brian

Right. I was just going to say, this sounds like you’re going to give me a test tomorrow, and I’ll flunk it.

Nick

The whole point is you should be teaching people about the implications, and what war meant to Canada at a certain point. Why was Vimy Ridge so important? It doesn’t matter what the date is. We can look it up. What happened in that moment? What was the sacrifice? Why is that monument so important? I think that’s what we do. As you walk through Beechwood, the National Military Cemetery, you’re always confronted with these individuals that have served, who’ve either died from their wounds, came back from Afghanistan. It’s quite moving, in that sense that we have this connection, and people don’t take the time to stop and think and learn about these individuals.

Laryssa

I think it’s that connection that makes the date stick, that makes those events stick. I want to thank you for being a keeper of a lot of those stories. You’d mentioned earlier, too, that national military cemeteries are important to be a place of honor. Beechwood certainly has that. Just coming onto the grounds, you can feel something different. It’s absolutely beautiful. You can feel that sense of honor and respect just on the grounds. It’s very peaceful and beautiful.

Going back to that connection, can you share? When we did that tour, and had the staff, the Atlas staff with us, you shared a lot of really compelling stories. Would you mind sharing something that might offer some of that connection? Yes, I’ll leave it there.

Nick

I’m going to share moments, and I think that’ll get it. One of my favorite moments is, I was waiting on Remembrance Day for a tour. It was the Governor General at the time, not name-dropping, just saying who it was. I was just waiting. It was after her official duties. It was something the Governor General does whenever we have a new one, a really wonderful way to do it. I take them through on a private tour, no media, no nothing.

Brian

Poignant now because a new transition will be occurring.

Nick

Exactly. I’m standing there, and this older lady comes up to me. She’s like, “Oh, who are you waiting for?” I’m just chit-chatting with her. She’s like, “I have a friend who’s buried over there, my former neighbor.” I’m like, “Who’s that?” She’s like, “Harry”. I’m like, “Harry who?” She’s like, “Oh, he was some kind of general.” I’m like, Harry Crerar, the Commander of the First Canadian?” She’s like, “Yes, that makes sense.” I’m like, “How did you know him?” She’s like, “He was the nice old guy in our neighborhood who would give us candy.”

After his war, he walked around, and it really humanized him. For me, I viewed him more in the Omar Bradley way. If you read Bradley’s biography, it talks about Crerar as one of the greatest logistic minds in that period. This is Omar Bradley, who was a logistics specialist as well. I think that’s one moment. My favorite moment recently was a few years ago. We had Princess Margriet unveil a plaque for General Foulkes in front of General Foulkes’ only living descendants.

The princess came, when she came to Ottawa last time, it was just such a moment, because she honored the man who liberated her country. The Dutch do it right. The Dutch, the kids go to the cemetery. They take care of the Canadian war graves. They teach about our role, but they also do duties outside. The princess is coming back again this week. There’ll be a lot of duties in that sense as one of her final trips, if you will. That’s some of my favorite moments.

Again, everyone has a story. We can talk about Corporal Jack. Corporal Jack was part of the Devil’s Brigade, only Devil’s Brigader on the planet to have an actual Devil’s Brigade, not ensign, but the double arrows on his head, because they weren’t around long enough to get an ensign. Very much in those moments. It’s also, when we have these conversations with people who are at ceremony, who are part of ceremonies, that’s really the meaningful part, that they feel connected, that the Veterans have a place to go, the active service men and women have a place that is theirs, and it is only theirs.

Brian

For me, when I connect this to mental health, for me, the root is just, it’s so clear. We do a lot of work these days with helping people tell their stories in their own voice. Make sure that when their story comes out, it’s theirs. They’re their own editor. They get to tell when it gets used. What do we do when we’re gone? At the end of the day, if your story’s going to continue when you’re gone, someone else is telling it.

I look at the war museum in town here. I have such mixed emotions when I see some of the stuff that I slept in, drove in, worked in. For one, I certainly feel old. How the heck is my stuff in a museum piece now? It is. The pride of that is like, “Okay, maybe someone will tell our story.” I’ve wanted to tell the story, but I’ve also really enjoyed standing back and hearing how someone else would tell it.

I think that’s a big thing, because when we’re talking about Market Garden, and when we’re talking about the advance through Italy, that means someday we’ll be talking about Op Medusa. We’ll be talking about– Canada can talk about those things. I wanted to ask you, what are you seeing today? We talked earlier, and you said that you’ve got events going on where the participation’s growing. That’s not what I thought I would hear from you, but I’m happy to hear that. What do you see, and what do you attribute it to?

Nick

I think we’re getting more and more awareness. I have a really cherished vision. I love what I do. It’s pretty easy that you can tell. We’ve known each other for years, so you can tell. We’ve really pushed it out. We’ll start at the teacher level. You have some amazing teachers across the country, and across the city that are doing programs and participating in programs like No Stone Left Alone.

There’s a few high schools that adopt a grave. They do all the research. They find out where the person served. Typically, it’s World War II back, because those files are public, but they at least adopt. I have one teacher who comes every year, and I give the students a tour, and the students have to present me who they’re — the individuals.

Brian

Interesting.

Laryssa

Okay.

Nick

Not only do they take a look at who the individual is, they look how it fits in the larger conflict, and how, when and where they served. It really gives a wholesome place, and we’re seeing that more and more. I think technology is helping. The database is being accessible, being able to connect a little more. I think we’ve also opened up a ceremony to a lot more people.

The minute you start taking necessarily the regiment leads, or the element leads, but you start inviting people. You start inviting public. You start getting a child to come up and read The Commitment to Remember. To me, that’s always an incredible moment. I think we’re seeing growth. Last year was a smaller year for our Remembrance Day ceremony, because it snowed, but we are 3,500 people. We’ve been 4,000. We’re etching closer to 5,000 every year.

Again, what you do is throughout the year, we start with these small ceremonies. May 4th, we have Dutch Remembrance, and it’s with the Dutch community, members of the diplomatic corps, children, youth. You have a youth. You always have to have a youth. Then, you lay a wreath, and that’s the start of the program for the year. We go all the way to December with different programming.

At every moment, people start connecting. They start understanding. They start seeing how they themselves, even if they didn’t serve, or their Family didn’t serve, but as a Canadian, they’re part of something bigger. They’re part of a larger world. They’re part of a larger culture that they not necessarily knew they were part of. You can put that with the RCMP, as the Provost Corps, the MPs. I know a lot of soldiers don’t like MPs, but —

Brian

Well, they do break up the odd party. [chuckles]

Nick

They do have a purpose. You have the Provost Corps. You have a bunch of different moments that we can celebrate throughout the year. Then, Ottawa being the embassy location as well, we have so many of these smaller ceremonies that are also getting larger now. I do a private ceremony with the Aussies and the Kiwis independently the week before Remembrance Day, where we lay wreaths for almost a dawn service, because at that time, dawn is like 6:00 a.m. It’s like a seven o’clock service.

I think people are just more aware, and they’re getting out to cemeteries more. They’re learning a little bit more. They’re seeing it. I think how to get it more accessible, having micro stories out there. We do a lot of video content, a lot of blog posting. You can see Remembrance Day, that starts to spike on our traffic. People are starting to watch the videos. I think there’s a sense of, and we talked about this a little bit, there’s a sense of need to connect to something larger.

I think if you’re Canadian, there’s what is to be Canadian, but also that we’re part of this greater military Family, let’s say, that has served our country so well. You think of moments throughout our history that our identity is tied specifically to military campaigns from Vimy, which is a success, to Dieppe, which I hope it gets revised into something else, to Juno Beach. There’s nothing more poignant for Canadians than to tie our identity to these nation-building moments. The military was the nation-building moment for those.

Brian

One of my deployments in Afghanistan, I was not working directly for Canadians in a very multinational organization. It was a Royal Marine, and then a soldier from the French army came to me. We’d just lost a Canadian when I was there. They’d said to me that, in their opinion, they thought Canada was the gold standard on what I would call ramp ceremonies and the Highway of Heroes. They were blown away.

What they thought was that theirs were coming back at night, and theirs were coming back almost clandestinely, like, almost let’s move these dead soldiers’ remains back to our countries quickly. They were flipping on the news, and they were seeing the firemen. It makes me emotional just thinking about it. My mental image right now of people remembering our conflict is, fire trucks on overpasses on the highway here in Ontario. To hear other countries say, “You guys do this right,” it was an interesting thing for me, but it leads me today when you just said, “The Dutch do it right.” What do you mean? What do you think maybe what we could learn from what the Dutch do?

Nick

I think let’s start with the ramp ceremony. The ramp ceremony was a Canadian construct. We developed it. It was medical staff in Afghanistan who developed it after the loss of 16 soldiers. One has to remember that we didn’t repatriate until after 1970. If we find anybody who passed away before 1970, we bury them within the closest military cemetery to where they were found. It’s called casual identification support.

Brian

Yes, you died in Korea, you’re still in Korea.

Nick

Up until 1970. I think when the ramp ceremony itself, I think what made it so poignant, it was a visual, but it was a way for Canadians across the country to show respect. That’s what the Highway of Heroes became. Even when Beechwood built our laneway to the main monument, it’s a ramp for a reason.

Brian

Oh, wow. Okay. I hadn’t thought of it that way.

Nick

It’s a ramp for a reason, and that’s why it’s a ramp, to emulate the ramp ceremony that those soldiers that we lost are there. When I say, “The Dutch do it right,” it’s the education program. I think it’s the communing with the cemeteries. It’s going out. Like Christmas Eve, you’ll have lights on headstones in Canadian cemeteries. It’s Dutch school children and Dutch teachers do that together. The community gets involved.

I think we’re starting to see that in Canada. I think we’re growing. I’m a proud member of No Stone Left Alone. I’m the Ontario regional coordinator. Through my tenure as the regional coordinator, Ontario’s exploded. Again, I have access to the cemetery network and to get them on board. That’s never a challenge. Of course, they want people in their cemeteries.

If you have the program already primed, when a teacher comes. We’ve seen a growth of these kids coming in, doing a remembrance ceremony, and being the lead in remembrance ceremonies. I think that’s what we forget to do. Don’t put the kids to the side when you’re teaching. Don’t shame them into wearing a poppy. Have them come out and say, I need to wear a poppy. I need to remember. I need to know why that these moments in Canadian history are so important. I think if you have a kid lay a wreath in remembrance, it changes everything for that child. One of my —

Brian

The Vets watching.

Nick

The Vets watching. My kids have always been around military. The year before last, my daughter read the Act of Remembrance at the Beechwood Remembrance Day ceremony. She didn’t look up until after she was done. She had her back to the crowd. She was sitting facing the monument, and then got up and read. Did a great job. I was super proud of her. Then, I saw her look up, and she saw Vets, soldiers, people in the community. It was this moment for her. She was like, “Okay, I’m tied to something bigger.”

Laryssa

Connection. As you’re speaking, and you disclosed as we were prepping, getting our mics set up and everything here, and I was downing my coffee and thinking as quickly as I could about the sheer number of events that Beechwood is doing. As you’re chatting, I’m thinking that the connection you’re creating is very intentional. That’s why you have more and more people coming to your events, more youth and children interested in being active, and asking to wear the poppy. I remember when I was in school back in the day, I was asked to read the Act of Remembrance in front of my school.

There was no connection there. It was me being tasked to do something in an assembly, which was meaningful to me, because my father at that time had served. I didn’t have that same connection.

I think it’s important for young people, as they are coming to Nick to tell you about which soldier they have chosen, and they will present to you. I think that through the research and understanding that it was someone who maybe wasn’t much older than they are, that maybe had similar interests that left brothers and sisters behind. Yes, you folks are really being intentional in creating opportunities for connection, and evolving in what is meaningful for youth now. Before it was reading the Act of Remembrance at an assembly, but your programming is so much more than that. It sounds like it’s so many more opportunities through the year, as you were saying.

Nick

We do, I would say, about 150 events a year, not all military, of course, but I would say probably a third are military. It’s anything from historical nights, to talks, to documentary screenings, to, of course, remembrance ceremonies, a lot of tours. The Canadian Armed Forces has been really great. I’ve been able to — they can use education time off to come to Beechwood, and I’ll give them a tour.

I’ve had the Padres to the CDS to Top Sheet to — you name it, come, health services. The Padres are always fun to take around. The whole crew, the whole gambit. I think last year, it was 30 or 40 groups throughout the military who are doing these private tours with us. They themselves are seeing how they’re connected. I think all these different ceremonies, the whole goal is that we can have individual ceremonies for different moments.

We can have it for Dutch remembrance. We can have it for Ukrainian remembrance, French. Irish, English, what have you. Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic, what have you. Korea, Afghanistan. The whole goal, though, is to move everyone so that on November 11th, we are united as one, so that we’ve commemorated all these moments. Now, on Remembrance Day, we’re united. It’s only one.

Brian

We were speaking earlier about Friday. You’ve got this Ukrainian contingent coming by. What I first thought when I heard that is, “Well, for one, you could certainly forgive the Ukrainians for being a little preoccupied with what they’re going on with right now.” Their nation is under attack, and yet they’re coming to commemorate VE Day. With all that’s going on in the Ukrainian world right now, they’re coming up to Beechwood and remembering World War II and sacrifices there. That, to me, is phenomenal.

That’s the kind of thing that, it does make me smile a little bit, because someone does care and someone does remember. I think that’s the tie between what’s going on in your line of work, and the mental health of Veterans today. It’s like if communities in Canada will be remembering my friends 50, 60 years from now, and maybe some kid will be talking about people that we lost, and giving a presentation to the new Nick McCarthy up there. That’s a real positive story.

Nick

I think if anybody’s going to take anything away from this talk is that people do care. You don’t always see it, because you’re not there. As somebody who is there on a regular basis, the amount of care that a student will take to lay a poppy, touch the grave, call out the name, right? Regardless if the person’s passed away or not, it’s the respect to the service. I think it’s one of those ideas, if only Vets that are struggling could see what the kids see when they’re looking at those headstones, and feel what those kids are feeling, I think it would be a game-changer. To see that is incredible. I think, again, it’s the ability to connect. I think that’s what we need to do better at.

Laryssa

I hope it’s okay and appropriate for me to talk about something that was poignant for me. I had the visual of children reaching out and saying the name. What I also did notice was coins on headstones. I think, to me, that is an ultimate form of connection and respect. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Nick

We do have coins, and then we’ll have people place stones as well, so two different traditions. One, the stones typically associated to Jewish tradition. You find a stone when you’re going to the cemetery, put it in your pocket. It’s considered a mitzvah. Because we’re so multicultural, everyone does it now. That’s just telling the Family they’re there.

The coins themselves, it was after the Vietnam that started in US cemeteries. It was really with the African American Veterans. It was a way for them to communicate on their headstones who they were, and how they were connected. The larger the coin amount, the value, the closer you were to their death was. Every coin has a different meaning. You either served with them. You either did basic training, or you were there the day they died. Again, it’s an incredible way of communication. For those like me, you can see and you can understand exactly what’s going on and who visits.

Laryssa

I think about the Families, too. If a Family goes there and sees the coins that were there like — [crosstalk]

Brian

Yes. One of his mates visited this year, because there’s that nickel, right?

Laryssa

They were remembered and cared for. Yes.

Nick

It’s very poignant. You have that, and then you’ll have Remembrance Day when Families come and they see a poppy laid as well. That’s a really great one. We do headstone cleaning twice a year now in the fall leading to Remembrance Day. The amount of people that come on a Sunday morning and Sunday afternoon for that is incredible. I think last year we were 400 each day.

It was just a moment where you have people taking the time, looking at the headstone, ensuring that it’s clean, cleaning it over, and then moving to the next. We had Vets. We had active members. We had Family. It hit me last year. There was this one girl, her father was serving. The media asked her, “Why are you here?” She’s like, “Because I want somebody to clean my father’s headstone.”

Laryssa

Me too.

Brian

Yes. A lot of times, if you look at a place like Beechwood, I think your property up there is magnificent. It’s stunning when you get up there, especially when you come over that hill where the big [unintelligible 00:30:06] is, and you look down and just see the row upon row. There are Veterans in this country buried in unmarked graves, right? How does that happen?

Nick

That’s an interesting one because sometimes we lose track of people. I’ll use the RCMP as a good example. Assistant Commissioner Ames, really high up Assistant Commissioner, he retires from Ottawa, moves to Victoria, and passes away with no Family. There’s a guy, Joe Healy, who runs the RCMP grave database and he couldn’t find him. Eventually, he was found in a cabinet in a funeral home, cremated because there was nobody left.

We ended up bringing him back to Beechwood. He was buried with honors. We have a Veterans group that they come and they do the service. They act as an honor guard. I think that’s what typically happens. People retire or they lose that connection, or they don’t do their services. I don’t mean this to be a plug, but everyone should be doing a pre-need to know where you’re going to end up. I think that’s important.

I think just some people never make it back from the war. I think it’s a lack of mental health services. It’s a lack of support. It’s a lack of connection. It’s a shame because I think if you think Last Post, the entire point of Last Post Fund was to provide dignified burial grounds. That’s always available. You have the Last Post Fund. They do incredible work. We have a section that takes care of them, makes sure that they get their honors, that they receive the dignified burial they deserve.

If they pass away on the street, and they don’t have any ID, how do we know that they served? That’s a hard one. There’s no good answer. I could say a Vet’s house is a great example of a place that gives space, and a home for Veterans who are not doing well. I think you have all these organizations that are starting to pop up that are doing the right thing, that are doing right for the country. I think it’s a model that’s expandable.

Brian

I think for this and other mental health issues, that the onus to some degree is on Veterans to know how to navigate systems, to reach out. In here, one thing that stands to reason is, I’ve run into a lot of Vets who haven’t filled out their will since their last deployment 26 years ago. That will was good enough for the army to know what to do with you if you passed away in Croatia.

Now, your life has changed and you’ve moved on. It’s probably time to dust that thing off again, and give it a look. Also though, I think we have to be willing to tell our stories. The week around Remembrance Day, I’ll tell you, is when schools reach out, and they want someone to come in. You do one or two, and you might turn down the third or fourth. How do you think Vets can be part of outside of remembrance week, contributing to their own storytelling?

Nick

I think the one thing that people have to realize is, you can take a look at the education curriculum online, and see when they’re teaching what. I think everyone thinks that, “Oh, well, they’re only teaching military history during Veterans Week.” You have 11 days a year. That’s not true. They’re teaching it as part of Canadian history. If you start connecting with a school and be like, “I’d like to be able to come in and talk. If we’re talking about a specific period in Canadian history, I’m happy to come in and have a little session.”

Brian

Like your own school. The ones you have a connection to.

Nick

Exactly. I think that’s an easy way for Vets to share the story, because it is not fair for Veterans, the week of Remembrance Day, to be having to commit to so much because it’s a day of mourning. Remembrance Day is a day where people deserve that dignity. They deserve that moment where they can reflect themselves. They can go to a ceremony, participate, or be a watcher, or be part of it.

I think that’s the key. Reach out outside of periods or join. We do some No Stone Left Alone events in Ontario in May as part of this season, so that schools at the end of their school year are doing things. I’m going to have school groups at the middle of June coming for tours as their end of season, end of school, so they can clink it all together.

Brian

Do you see you guys, in regards to Beechwood, getting more and more online accessible as things go on? In so much as, it sounds really great for the high school teacher who’s right around the corner, what could someone who’s teaching kids in Vancouver, what can they do?

Nick

We’re working on a full partnership with Memory Anchor. Memory Anchor is an app that you can download. It will have the Beechwood Explorer app. You can actually visit the headstones. Some of the monuments are completely VR, so you can actually put the monument on the table through your cell phone —

Brian

Oh, wow.

Nick

— and take a look at it. Some of our monuments are already like that. We’re working towards that. I just rebuilt the site last week. It’s getting there. It’s getting back to where I need it to be. I think there’s so many resources out there. Of course, Beechwood. I’m going to promote Beechwood. We have a blog. We have a Substack, Instagram, Twitter, full YouTube channel where we tell these stories, and we share in bite-sized portions.

We have flying overviews with drones. We’re going to redrone our section, because we’ve got more assets that I want to make sure that we highlight. I think it’s — if you’re in BC, find your local cemetery, contact them, and go in and take a look, because service is all across the country. There’s no cemetery I know of in Canada that doesn’t at least have one headstone for a military soldier.

I think it’s also taking a look and seeing that, sometimes it’s not your traditional granite headstone that we all commonly know. Sometimes the Family marks on the headstone information. I think of Frederick Sherwood. He was a submariner, Canada’s most decorated submariner in Halifax. The submarine training facility is actually called the Frederick Sherwood Training Facility.

He’s buried at Beechwood, just Frederick Sherwood. I would have never known that he was Canada’s most decorated submariner. I just happened to run into his Family who was coming for a visit. They’re like, “Well”, told me the story. I’m like, “Okay, I need to know more.” They’re like, “Don’t worry, I’ll bring a book.” That’s always something I like if you bring me a history book. I’m always game for that. Full plug on that. [chuckles]

They share this wonderful book. It’s this whole history about the individual. I read the book right away, and then did a whole video about him, so that we can have his story and where he’s located. Eventually, that’ll be tagged with Memory Anchor. The video will be there, the story, and then the Family can add thoughts, and the community can add thoughts.

Laryssa

I want to shift a little bit to the other side of the story. I think military Families have a lot of stories to tell. For example, through some of the key points in history, World War I, World War II, Families holding things together here. Many women working in munitions factories, they have incredible stories as well. There’s been a bit of an evolution, it sounds like, particularly with Beechwood on how Families are included. We were chatting before about how military cemeteries before were exclusive to someone who had served, but things have changed a little bit.

Nick

When you think of the evolution of military cemeteries, most people think of Arlington, the big US cemetery. It’s a military base. It’s a direct benefit. The longer you serve, the more likely you’re going to be in the ground hole. That’s Arlington rule. When a spouse dies, the spouse is not facing forward, but when the service member dies, the headstone gets turned around, the spouse now faces backwards, and the military, the serving member faces forward. That’s the American way.

The battlefield way, which is what our model is from, was always the service member, because the Family wasn’t there. Beechwood, when we developed, we developed the designated next of kin. It’s whoever you feel represent is important to you. If you walk through, you’ll see sons and daughters. You’ll see, of course, spouses. Then most of the time, you have double-serving spouses.

You’ll have the irony of having a Navy and Air Force badge on top of each other. There’s no specific rules on who gets to go on top or not. That’s a Family decision. I’m going to tell you, Beechwood will never tell a Family who goes on top. It doesn’t matter on rank. That’s your business. We don’t get paid enough to help with that Family dynamic. I’m just being funny. I think when you look at regimental cemeteries, they’re moving over to the plus one, which is a big deal.

We’re looking at expanding our military section into 109, which is the next phase. There’s talks about having Family plots. That’s going to be another evolution we see. Then, we look at, you mentioned the CSIS cemetery and the RCMP cemetery. Those are not regimental cemeteries. They’re national memorial cemeteries. What they did is when we designed and we worked with the RCMP, the Veterans, and all that, we actually designed it in such a way that it’s full Family members. It’s full Families together.

The idea was that an individual doesn’t serve as a standalone. An individual serves, and the Family serves as well.

Laryssa

You took the words out of my mouth, Nick.

Nick

I’m always very cognizant of thanking Families for their service. If I’m emceeing an event, there’s always a thank you for the service, to remember the service of the Families. We try to get the Families to do, lay a wreath, or in memoriam or something like that. The RCMP, when we do services with them, ceremonies, there’s always a Family wreath for the Families. Super simple, super easy, but it acknowledges the role that Families have of keeping everything, so that when somebody’s on mission, or abroad, or working, they don’t have anything to fear at home.

Brian

As we wrap up here, I’d like to just spend a little bit talking about healing. Places like Beechwood, it’s obvious what we’re doing there. The deceased person is being interred, and we’re doing the proper way. What does military honors mean? Well, it means that if they were still here, they’d be seeing the proper service happen. It’s also for everyone else who’s in the room, or everyone else that’s at the location.

What do you see happening in the way of healing in your job? What do you see happening in that regard? Do you notice a difference between the services themselves, and then when someone, say, comes back a month or two later on their own to have their own quiet moment? What do you see there?

Nick

First of all, when we’re dealing with grief, grief is different for everyone. I think anyone who says that there’s a timeline for grief, doesn’t understand grief. People will — it ebbs and flows. There’s moments that will hit you. I think that’s one thing. The military service, the burial service itself, I think it’s important. It gives the respect and the dignity that the individual deserves, that they earned. I think that’s one thing.

Beechwood also does it a little different because Veterans get a military flavour. You don’t have to die in service to get the military, the bagpiper, the bugler, everything like that. I think when it comes to healing, I think there’s different moments across the year. We do a Soldiers of Suicide event, honoring a soldier’s suicide, understanding that suicide only exists because of their service.

We ask the Family to submit photos, and we actually project the photos onto the monument. It’s a lovely, lovely service. We have mental health services there as well, St. John’s ambulance as well, Hope. They’re all there to speak and make sure the Families understand that they’re there for them. Moments like that are very healing. We’ve had — that ceremony has been three people. It has been 40.

It doesn’t matter because who’s going to be there at that moment is who needs that service, that ceremony. I think when you look at cemeteries as place of healing, it gives that final location where you can have a moment to reflect, or you can be part of something bigger where you don’t have to worry about your individual grief. You can be with the community. I think knowing that the community grieves together is important.

Brian

For thinking of the whole people reaching out to contact, two things. If folks want to know more about the different events that are happening at Beechwood, where’s the best route for them to go about doing that?

Nick

I would say sign up for our newsletter. That’s number one. I’m going to plug. We’ve always had the events all on our website, Facebook, Instagram, all social media. This time, we’ve got full calendars on our website that you can subscribe to. You can just put it directly into your Outlook calendar with one button now. Really happy with the new site, obviously. That’s the easiest thing. Our newsletter is also a really good one, because then you stay up-to-date on some of the stuff we’re doing as well. Then, our magazine is another thing that we email and mail out. That’s a great way for people to know what’s going on.

Brian

Then, for military and military Families that are looking at sorting out their own arrangements or seeing if Beechwood’s the option that they want to go with, is that the same place they would go to do that?

Nick

They would just go in our community section. We have Defense and Securities. It’s a specific community on its own. It includes, of course, the National Military Cemetery, the Veterans Section, Ottawa Police, CSIS, RCMP, the diplomats. It really gives a fulsome because, of course, some people will have served in the military, served in police force, served in the RCMP.

Then, you see three or four different badges, CSIS Police, CSIS RCMP, CSIS Air Force, a lot of Air Force and CSIS, obviously. I think that’s the easiest way. We have a bunch of ebooks that are available that people can just download, and just understand the practice where you don’t have to commit. You can just see what you need to know. It’s a great way to doing it. Other than that, I would just say, if you’re in Ottawa, come and take a tour and see.

Brian

The reason I wanted to reach out on this was, obviously, we’d connected before. You guys put on a really great educational event for my work colleagues. I’ve been following the stuff you’ve been doing online. It’s a large amount of what you’re doing in, I would say, the education space, and the remembrance space. It’s also really diverse. All the different conflicts and just reminding people that peaceful country, yes, but Canada certainly has a long and proud military history.

I’d like to thank Nick McCarthy, a historian, and also one of the key ways that we got in touch up in Beechwood. He educated me a lot that day. It was really, really heartwarming to see how some of my friends that have been entrusted in your care up there are being looked after. Thanks for joining us today on Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

I also want to thank you, Nick, for what you do because it is about what’s resonating with me right now is connection. I think I learned a lot more about what you do, and what Beechwood provides. Just thank you for the support that you give for our community.

Nick

No, it’s an honour. I never served, but I think I’m able to feel like I’m helping the military community, which I’ve respected my entire life. As I mentioned earlier, I do come from a long line of military Family, people who chose to serve. Some never came back. Some came back, and never really were here. It’s just a way to honor those people that I admire so much, and I respect so much.

[music]

Brian

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind Beyond the Mission.

Laryssa

If this conversation resonated with you, or helped you in any way, I encourage you to subscribe to Mind Beyond the Mission wherever you listen to your podcasts, so you’ll be the first to know when our next episode comes out.

Brian

If you know someone who might relate to what we’ve shared, or could find it helpful, please feel free to send it their way. We’re all on the same team.

Laryssa

Plus, we’d love to hear what other topics you’d be interested in us exploring in future episodes. Brian and I have a lot of ideas, and subjects we plan to dive into. You, the listener, have probably experienced, or thought of topics that haven’t crossed our minds yet.

Brian

Please reach out if this is the case. We’re on social media at @atlasveteransca on most platforms. Please feel free to tweet at us, send us a message, or leave a review on this episode. Let us know what else you’d like to hear us talk about.

Laryssa

Brian, it’s always a pleasure having these important conversations with you. Looking forward to next time.

Brian

You bet, Laryssa. Take it easy.